My other post was getting off topic so I started a new one to discuss this thru...I cut the last exchange below and put a link in that thread to this one...
Sean Woodruff wrote:
Well, no, not unless the tow vehicle and trailer lose wheel traction. In other words, on ice it very well could be.
Sean
crappie_fisherman wrote:
Sean,
Since I think we beat this horse about brake light...let me ask you a question and take this thread in a diffent direction...
Do you feel that the Hensly bump is an indication of an 'impending jacknife'?
joe.
Sean Woodruff wrote:
I'm sure there is validity in both of our logic as it applies to different vehicles. That's just the nature of all the variables in people, products and performance.
Sean
I'm sure there is validity in both of our logic as it applies to different vehicles. That's just the nature of all the variables in people, products and performance.
Sean
Sean,
Since I think we beat this horse about brake light...let me ask you a question and take this thread in a diffent direction...
Do you feel that the Hensly bump is an indication of an 'impending jacknife'?
joe.
Well, no, not unless the tow vehicle and trailer lose wheel traction. In other words, on ice it very well could be.
Sean
Okay than let's go with that scenario of losing wheel traction...I said let's take this thread in a new direction...well I started a new thread since the direction was a hard BUMP...HOLD ON...
I'm going to ignore the ice portion as most non-professionals would have their TT's stored when ice is on the road...can I substitute "wet" as in "rain" instead of your extreme "ice" reference?
Here's a couple of situations...one is a real account and others are hypothetical situations that certainly could happen to ANY OF US while towing. Both will have the same TV and TT but different hitches.
TV/TT combo: 2005 Trail Cruiser 30QBSS tugged and GMC Yukon 5.3L 3.73
Case #1 Hensley Arrow Hitch:
Making a left turn at an intersection. It had just started raining and the fresh asphalt was slick. I was not applying the brakes and was coasting into the turn doing maybe 15 MPH. As I went into the turn the TT pushed on the HA and the hitch swung around and slammed into its stop which caused the rear wheels of the Yukon to start sliding sideways which was followed by the TT sliding. I wasn't going very fast and we skidded for about 10 feet - fortunately no damage done.
Although my Jordan controller was set to engage the TT's brakes before the TV's, the mistake I made in this case was not applying the brakes and thereby allowing the TT to push the rear of the TV around. I doubt this would have happened in dry conditions, but now I always apply the brakes during sharp low speed manouvers to ensure the HA remains well behaved.
Case #2 Reese Dual Cam hitch:
Making a left turn at an intersection. It had just started raining and the fresh asphalt was slick. I was not applying the brakes and was coasting into the turn doing maybe 15 MPH. As I went into the turn my DC groaned and clanked and I could feel a slight push on the rear of the TV so I applied my brakes and completed my turn. Next time I will know to apply brakes a little sooner but all is well.
Case #3 Reese Dual Cam on decending a small grade/hill:
We had just climbed a small hill and the 5.3L was working pretty good. It downshifted to 2nd but the cruise control held 50MPH nicely. It had just started raining a few miles prior. As I crested the hill the kids started bickering and distracted me. While decending the hill I had to 'discuss' with the kids their behavior and we were gaining a little bit of speed but nothing too bad...at least I thought. I had the trans in 3rd (i.e. OD locked out) but I did have the cruise on as towing this combo is a pleasure and the HA makes it very safe. Well as I was 'discussing' things with the kids the cruise decided that we were gaining a little too much speed and needed to down shift...I felt the TT begin to push the rear of my Yukon so I tapped my brakes ever so lightly to disengage the cruise and the trans upshifted again...
Case #4 Hensley Arrow on decending a small grade/hill:
We had just climbed a small hill and the 5.3L was working pretty good. It downshifted to 2nd but the cruise control held 50MPH nicely. It had just started raining a few miles prior. As I crested the hill the kids started bickering and distracted me. While decending the hill I had to 'discuss' with the kids their behavior and we were gaining a little bit of speed but nothing too bad...at least I thought. I had the trans in 3rd (i.e. OD locked out) but I did have the cruise on as towing this combo is a pleasure and the HA makes it very safe. Well as I was 'discussing' things with the kids the cruise decided that we were gaining a little too much speed and needed to down shift...before I had a chance to react the downshift caused my TT to SLAM into the back of my Yukon JUST as we were entering a slight sweeping curve...That abrupt slam caused my rear tires to loose traction and the rear of my Yukon began to come around being PUSHED by my TT. I 'tried' to apply the Yukon brakes which quickly made things worse...we were in a complete jacknife slide...thankfully the road straighted out and there was no trafic around us...we skidded this way for a while and then came to rest...I'm not completely sure what caused that to happen...I suspect the down shift caused the HA to 'bump' my Yukon out of control on the wet surface...hmmmm
While many here would say that it was driver error in the fact that they had cruise control ON while towing especially in wet conditions...and I would certainly agree...BUT they were lead to beleive that the HA is a very safe hitch so if their TV could pull with cruise why not take advantage of that?...very plausible...
My point in these examples is that I FULLY AGREE that the HA is one of the most effective hitches to tow a TT with (The Pull-Rite being the other and depending on the TV/TT combo the DC and/or Equal-z-er) are just as effective. But the point in these scenarios (one is REAL BTW) is that the HA 'bump' can cause more harm than good under certain situations. The folks at Hensley do NOT like to discuss the 'bump' as they feel it is a small percentage of 'bumps' will be under the 'wrong' condtions and thus not a big deal..after all the Hitch is such an incredible anti-sway control device...why talk about the negative features?...
Well here's why...we are REAL PEOPLE towing here. Real life situations are NEVER PERFECT. The consequences of the 'bump' under the situations I describe above could be and have been very poor for the people that were towing...While I agree there is reference in the Hensley manual to properly adjusting the brake controller...look at scenario #1...HE DID!!! Under those conditions the lack of applying the brakes caused the issue...
I have a great friend that I encouraged to purchase a HA. He did but he was MOSTLY CLUELESS of the 'bump' and associated BAD THINGS that could happen...why...well I feel the folks at Hensley don't do enough to discuss it...why...AROGANCE is my opinion that their hitch is that good...it IS GOOD...but the negatives NEED TO BE ADDRESSED and discussed with customers and don't let customers beleive that their combo is the best it can be...While I am happy with the stability the HA gives my combo...I also understand the limitations of the design...many on here also do...many not on here MAY NOT...
I am an engineer and like to research and test things...MOST ARE NOT...the first time something like the above situations happen is the first time that person would think of it!...most do not invest the time many of us do on here to 'educate' THEMSELVES. My buddy...is a PRIME example...he's towed 30+ YEARS with traditional WD hitches...the HA is NEW TO HIM and the associated negative things that can be INDUCED BY THE HA are NOT discussed by Hensley.
Don't get me wrong...the POSITIVES should be accentuated in the HA. Unfortunately life is strange and it does throw curve balls at folks. The marketing of the HA leads people IMO to believe they are more 'immune' to those bad things...in MANY cases they ARE...but in some of my examples above...that 'bump' or impulsive load generated and delivered BY THE HA is what caused the situation to go from a controllable one to an un-controllable one.
Here's another example:
CLICK HERE FOR SOURCE
If you scroll to the July 14, 2005 blog entry you will see this...
July 14, 2005
Auburn, WA - After leaving Ellensburg today, we entered the Wenatchee National Forest and started our climb to the Snoqualamie Pass. We have absolutely no idea how you pronouce that. Ellensburg was at 1,500 feet and the pass is over 3,000. There were lots of ups and downs on our way to Seattle. We skirted around the city toward Tacoma and then headed south. Every once in a while we would catch a view of Mt. Ranier.
And then, it happened. Traffic was heavy - it was a four lane divided highway with a concrete road divider on the right. A deer ran across the road and everyone put their brakes on. Thank goodness we didn't hit anyone - and we were the only vehicle damaged. We ran into the concrete divider wiping out the front of the truck. No one was injured. The trailer fish-tailed but came to rest just behind us with damage to the front right panel. The Hensley Hitch was destroyed and we took it off in pieces. Our insurance company sent two tow vehicles. It took two hours to remove the Hensley and hitch up the trailer to one of the vehicles. Then, they loaded the truck onto another vehicle and off we went. They towed us to a repair shop who also let us park the trailer in their yard. This is where we will live until the truck is repaired. We will have to replace the Hensley before we can go anyplace, but will wait until we get to an Airstream place to repair the trailer. The guy who owns the repair shop gave us a quick estimate of $7,000 on the truck just by looking. Of course, they will have to put it on a lift and dismatle some things to come to an exact estimate.
We're both worn to a frazzle but are grateful that we weren't in an ambulance heading to a hospital. It's nothing that can't be fixed.
What's my deal or beef with Hensley you may ask...NOTHING...I just want to point out a few examples that like to get swept under the carpet and feel the what I would call 'mis-guided arogance' by those selling these to not fully explain the 'feature' of the 'bump'. I pray each and every time my buddy gets out there that he understands the dynamics involved with this hitch. ..I think our time around the campfire together have instilled a bunch of these scenarios...and he is a very intelligent engineer...so I think he is okay...but what about the others?
The situations I describe are a VERY SMALL percentage of what can and does happen.
I am a HA owner...with my combo at an 8000# TV and 9000# TT with 137+" of wheel base and ~12-13% tongue weight as verified by a scale, I have a very inherently STABLE combo to begin with...I should not need sway control under 'most' situations...I've spent time at the scales to make it that way...BUT I KNOW I need sway control for those SMALL PERCENTAGES of situations...hence my HA for me...BUT I also understand that there are situations that the HA can actually INDUCE a situation that my old DC could not...the IMPULSIVE LOAD. A tightly coupled ball with DC simply cannot SLAM into the back of my TV and cause my rear wheels to be abruptly pushed/skidded...so I adjust my driving habits accordingly...My buddy didn't...first time out with him...we got BUMPED...I keep talking thru these scenarios with him and share these situations with other HA owners and many not 'active' on these forums are not aware either...so I try and help educate them and explain that these situations I describe are a very very small percentage AND they are FAR BETTER OFF WITH THE HENSLEY...but they still need to be aware and not be ignorant just because they have a HA!!!
When I talk with some of the folks 'associated' with Hensley I can hear the 'arrogance' in the answers...while you are no longer VP of Hensley...you know the product. And I picked up on some arogance even though you may not have intended it...when you thru in the 'ice' reference above...maybe it was just sarcism...I'm not sure...but how many non-professional folks actually tow in ice situations?
When I called and ordered my HA I was NEVER TOLD of this 'bump' and the associated fall out it could cause...there is a cryptic reference to ensuring that your brake controller is properly adjusted but no explaination as to why...but case #1 above is case in point that even WITH a properly adjusted brake controller you could STILL get the bump...case #4 also illustrates that...
Sure bad things happen to good people each and every day...but to continue to ignore a situation that could put innocent folks in a bad situation because they aren't engineers and don't understand dynamic forces...is IMO arrogant and short sighted...
What do I propose?
Well I know Ron Estrada will be reading this...I propose a more complete and thorough section of the Hensley manual to educate people on this situation rather than the cryptic 'properly adjust your brake controller' reference. Also EVEN the TruControl GOLD in cases #1 or #4 would NOT have prevented that situation. It would have certainly helped on July 14, 2005 though...
Life is strange and has many twists and turns...at the end of the day I will CONTINUE to tow with my HA...but again...I understand or think I understand the limitations of the hardware I am trusting my families safety with...I don't feel everyone that tows with the HA fully understands those limitations...and the lack of discussion by the Hensley folks about these limitations just further propagates that situation.
All of the above are of course JUST MY OPINIONS on the facts I have been able to find...I have links to the data if anyone would like more proof...take them for what you paid though...I've been bored while trying to sell a brand new TruControl Silver so figured while I was expending MY PERSONAL TIME to recoup my cash...I'd do a little typing! (BTW...that's sarcism)
Hopefully I haven't ruffled too many feathers with this long winded manifesto...that was NOT my goal...sorry if it did...the HA IS an incredible product...but it does have limitations as with anything...I just feel those limitations are like that crazy aunt upstairs...we don't talk about her BUT SHE IS THERE...
Joe.
DH, DW, 2 DD's
2005 Excursion V10 w/4.30's
- Hensley Arrow
- Prodigy
- Rear Hellwig
- RAS
- Front hitch
- Bilsteins
- SCT Tuner w/5-Star Tunes
- Aeroforce Gauge
2007 JayFlight 31BHDS (3 women & 2 slides...it helps!
)Mini & the BEAST
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I have a Hensley Arrow. I've towed in rain, snow, ice, mud, gravel, fast, slow, cities, highways, and never gotten the bump.
Has anyone seen the hitch when it bumps? Exactly what part of the hitch is bumping? Are the strut bars adjusted correctly...mine are snug-tight. What else could it be?
I'm free of prostate cancer for 5 years now.
All men over age 50 should get an annual PSA blood test. Mine had a low reading, but the yearly jump was significant. The biopsy showed cancer just entering the aggressive stage. Dr. Hackenslash removed it.
As we were crossing the crown in the road, I had a little left turn dialed in and traffic suddenly was stopping in front of us so I had to hit the brakes fairly hard... As I did this, the trailer tongue swung to the left and my #9400 TT gave the truck a pretty good whack as it pivoted on the Hensley cams... The whack was hard enough to break the truck rear end loose and I pretty much had my hands full trying to control the combination...
Now, admittedly, I didn't have the TT brakes "leading" the truck brakes far enough or at least so it would seem, but that bump from the "worlds safest hitch" darn near caused us to loose control and have an accident...
Since then I have totally reworked my entire brake system on my new trailer and have increased it's braking force dramatically BUT I'll offer this for your thoughts...
Even though the TT brakes are set to lead the TV brakes by a goodly amount, I submit that when towing a heavy trailer like mine with a lighter tow vehicle (truck weighs #6350 empty) it is possible for the truck brakes to overcome the trailer brakes in a hard stop and for the bump to still occur...
Here is why I say that... The TT weighs about #9400 loaded and is equipped with 4 wheel DRUM brakes... The TV is about #7650 loaded and has 4 wheel DISK brakes... DISK brakes are much more efficient than drum brakes and as such when in a hard braking situation I submit that the TT brakes will not supply as much braking power as the TT brakes when the weight of the 2 vehicles is considered... Put another way, the ratio of braking power to vehicle weight will be transcended in a hard long braking scenario and the truck will eventually apply more braking force to itself than the trailer will apply to itself and then what happens - - - BUMP!!!
And that scenario has happened to me as well, several times... I think that the effectiveness of the Hensley Arrow is directly proportional to not only truck and trailer weight but throw in environmental conditions as well and terrain too...
Here's what I think - - - the Hensley is a fine hitch BUT has it's limitations... Under most conditions, those limitations will not be exceeded by most of us, but in a few scenarios, the downfall of the Hensley will be readily apparent and the bump will manifest itself...
And to those who might ask, yes, my Hensley was setup properly and checked EVERY time I tow... The Jordan Ultima 2020 I use is now set to aggressively lead the truck brakes and my entire brake system on the TT has been reworked and is in perfect operating condition...
No, I have not experienced the bump since I reset and reworked all these items, but the fact remains that this condition can and will occur under certain conditions...
In this writers opinion, that bump is highly suspect in at least one instance I read about on these forums and is also responsible for my nearly loosing control of my rig and what could have been an unfortunate outcome... The driver's ability to respond to the bump action certainly enters into the equation, but the fact is, my wife is afraid to drive the rig for fear of the bump happening when she is driving...
I have towed with a lot of different systems and brake controllers over the years and I believe that the Hensley and Pullrite systems are the 2 safest systems out there... Out of those 2, I also believe that the Pullrite hitch is the better of the two for pure stability under all towing conditions... I have NEVER experienced a "bump" of any type with my Pullrite hitch under ANY towing conditions...
Now, the Pullrite has a few other small disadvantages but IMO they are insignificant in respect to it's superior towing stability... If I ever get another truck where I can employ the Pullrite (20K version) and keep my spare tire on the truck, I'll sell my Hensley and go back to the Pullrite... It is, IMO, the most stable of the two hitches and in that respect, the superior product......
My opinions for what they are worth...
Les
* This post was last edited 09/29/07 10:34am by LAdams *
2000 Ford F-250SD, XLT, 4X4 Off Road, SuperCab
w/ 6.8L (415 C.I.) V-10/3:73LS/4R100
Banks Power Pack w/Trans Command & OttoMind
2006 Nomad 3150 Double Slide (Bunkhouse)
Hensley Arrow
Jordan Ultima 2020
HUNTER THERMOSTAT INSTALL
HOME MADE WHEEL CHOCKS
Kenneth wrote:
"Snoqualamie Pass. We have absolutely no idea how you pronouce that." sno-KWALL-a-me
I have a Hensley Arrow. I've towed in rain, snow, ice, mud, gravel, fast, slow, cities, highways, and never gotten the bump.
Has anyone seen the hitch when it bumps? Exactly what part of the hitch is bumping? Are the strut bars adjusted correctly...mine are snug-tight. What else could it be?
"Snoqualamie Pass. We have absolutely no idea how you pronouce that." sno-KWALL-a-me
I have a Hensley Arrow. I've towed in rain, snow, ice, mud, gravel, fast, slow, cities, highways, and never gotten the bump.
Has anyone seen the hitch when it bumps? Exactly what part of the hitch is bumping? Are the strut bars adjusted correctly...mine are snug-tight. What else could it be?
I agree with Kenneth. I've towed thousands of miles in all kinds of road conditions with the Hensley with no adverse effects.
I did get the bump once when I neglected to properly set my brake controller and jumped on the brakes. But that was my fault not the hitch's.
Dave C.
2005 Silverado 2500 CC
Duramax 6.6 3.73 V-2
2003 Wildcat 27RL
B&W with Companion
Prodigy
Even if the majority of HA owners have not experienced the bump, that does not mean the bump should be ignored. On average, five out of six people who play Russian roulette with a six-shooter do not have a problem. That does not mean one should ignore the dangers of the game.
In another forum, one Hensley employee joked about the bump, stating:
QUOTE
You know, I've never felt the bump (except for the shin kind). I've been towing with them since '97. I told Sean we should actually market that: Do the Hensley Bump!
UNQUOTE
The Hensley bump is not a joking matter. As Les posted above, "---that bump is highly suspect in at least one instance I read about on these forums and is also responsible for my nearly loosing control of my rig and what could have been an unfortunate outcome---". IMO, trying to dismiss the existence of the bump by making jokes about it is not a good display of corporate responsibility.
I totally agree with Joe. If Hensley Mfg is as concerned about towing safety as they claim to be, they should openly acknowledge the existence of the Hensley bump, explain its potential safety problems, and emphatically discuss ways in which the risk of bump-related problems can be reduced. IMO, that would be demonstrating good corporate responsibility.
It's unfortunate that Sean Woodruff decided to stop posting on ORF. It would be very interesting to hear more of his views on the dynamics of the Hensley bump. Perhaps we could continue the dialog by having parallel threads -- one on ORF and one on Sunnybrook Talk Forum. Sean could post and respond on his forum and ORF members could post and respond here.
Just some thoughts.
Ron
I knew it would be controversial when I penned it. But I wasn't intending to lamblast Hensley. My point...if you read the post is that NOT EVERYONE will experience the bump and those that do will likely NOT have ADVERSE results. BUT the fact remains that when 9000#'s of TT moving at a slightly higher rate of speed SLAMS into the back of your TV at just the WRONG moment...is BAD.
Also the point is that the marketing of the HA is geared towards IMO setups that 'need' some extra stability...just take a look at the marketing videos...smaller TV's with larger TT's...
Do people remember a guy named Newton?
Well Newton's first law of motion is often stated as:
An object at rest tends to stay at rest and an object in motion tends to stay in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.
Newton's Second Law of motion can be characterized by F=MA
Newton's first law of motion predicts the behavior of objects for which all existing forces are balanced. Newton's second law of motion pertains to the behavior of objects for which all existing forces are NOT balanced. The second law states that the acceleration of an object is dependent upon two variables – the net force acting upon the object and the mass of the object. The acceleration of an object depends directly upon the net force acting upon the object, and inversely upon the mass of the object. As the net force increases, so will the object's acceleration. However, as the mass of the object increases, its acceleration will decrease.
And Newton's third law of motion:
"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."
The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the force on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs – equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs.
Physics or better stated NEWTON'S laws of motion are precisely what I am talking about with the 'bump' in just the WRONG situation.
Let's face it SWAY CONTROL IN GENERAL is NOT needed 99% or more of the time we tow with a PROPERLY BALANCED TRAILER...we carry sway control for those situations where SWAY can START. In my cases / scenarios above...it is my opinion that the HA is what turns a family towing outing BAD.
When in a curve...the HA 'effectivness' IS REDUCED...the geometry involved with the design is VERY EFFECTIVE when going straight...but as we turn and the geometry changes that effectivness REDUCES...couple that with a BUMP on a slick road and any of us could be toast...it happens that fast.
Believing that just because we tug with a HA we are immune to 'bad things' is a false sense of security IMO.
Les points out a situation that could have been disatrous for him and his F250...luckily he was able to overcome the condtion that could have turned ugly quick. We need to be educated of the 'potentials' in our hardware so we are ready to REACT as quickly as we can...THAT IS MY POINT.
If Hensley wants to ignore it and not talk about it...well...isn't that what this forum is for...to share our knowledge so others learn?
I've posted over on SunnyBrookTalk.com and have received a few PM's asking what my intentions are...over there it seems negative talk about the HA is not common...while I am NOT a SunnyBrook owner and I have posted that on the open forum...I AM a HA owner and they have a dedicated HA forum.
Sean has indicated his willingness to discuss this topic over there...I'm sure he would agree with Ron G's suggestion and I will be more than willing to post on both sites the discussion.
Again thanks for the discussion...I just hope my proposal of an appendix to discuss the 'bump' for HA owners in a more detailed fashion than the cryptic brake controller setup blurb. How many of the 10,000 HA owners regularly frequent either here or there to learn about these issues?...ponder that one before you fire back and state that you have 'never had the bump'...
Take a look at the data provided in my original post...accidents DO HAPPEN with the HA regardless of what Hensley says...we need to be educated so it doesn't happen to us!
Thanks again to Les and Ron for their responses.
joe.
The most important thing to remember is that there are many things that can cause dangerous situations towing and many things that can be done to reduce the effects of those things. No one item is a "cure all" and there is no subsitiute for a properly matched, balanced and setup TV/Trailer rig, regardless of the hitch type.
2000 Chevy Silverado 1500
2005 Komfort Trailblazer T23S
Honda EU2000I
I have been keeping an eye out for a used one, but after reading some of the problems with the bump that people have and now that I have my DC dialed in. I think I may just leave well enough alone. how does that old saying go? "if it ain`t broke don`t fix it"!
Wife Kim
Son Brandon 8yrs
Daughter Marissa 7yrs
Dog Shadow
07 Cherokee 32B
02 Excursion 4X4 V-10 4.30 gear, Hellwig sway bar
Reese HP dualcam,Prodigy brake controller.
A bad day of camping is
better than a good day at work!
The last time I got the bump was a few years back, under the same conditions that Joe described in his scenario #1.... a slow-speed left turn when fast braking was necessary. Not only did the HA bump me, it destroyed my OEM hitch receiver (I'm sure we're all seen THOSE pictures...).
I agree with Joe and Les, it's not enough of a problem to negate the benefits of the HA, but it has the potential to create a very dangerous situation under the right conditions. At a minimum, I think Hensley should advise owners up front to be sure that they have their brake controller dialed in right. AND, if they feel the bump under any circumstances, that is an indication that TT braking force is not set high enough.
dodge guy wrote:
I have been keeping an eye out for a used one, but after reading some of the problems with the bump that people have and now that I have my DC dialed in. I think I may just leave well enough alone. how does that old saying go? "if it ain`t broke don`t fix it"!
I have been keeping an eye out for a used one, but after reading some of the problems with the bump that people have and now that I have my DC dialed in. I think I may just leave well enough alone. how does that old saying go? "if it ain`t broke don`t fix it"!
Kevin,
While the bump is real...I wouldn't and didn't let it keep me from buying it...because I do feel the positives far outweigh the negatives...read on...
BurbMan wrote:
The last time I got the bump was a few years back, under the same conditions that Joe described in his scenario #1.... a slow-speed left turn when fast braking was necessary. Not only did the HA bump me, it destroyed my OEM hitch receiver (I'm sure we're all seen THOSE pictures...).
The last time I got the bump was a few years back, under the same conditions that Joe described in his scenario #1.... a slow-speed left turn when fast braking was necessary. Not only did the HA bump me, it destroyed my OEM hitch receiver (I'm sure we're all seen THOSE pictures...).
I didn't make this stuff up!
BurbMan wrote:
I agree with Joe and Les, it's not enough of a problem to negate the benefits of the HA, but it has the potential to create a very dangerous situation under the right conditions. At a minimum, I think Hensley should advise owners up front to be sure that they have their brake controller dialed in right. AND, if they feel the bump under any circumstances, that is an indication that TT braking force is not set high enough.
I agree with Joe and Les, it's not enough of a problem to negate the benefits of the HA, but it has the potential to create a very dangerous situation under the right conditions. At a minimum, I think Hensley should advise owners up front to be sure that they have their brake controller dialed in right. AND, if they feel the bump under any circumstances, that is an indication that TT braking force is not set high enough.
When I said above to Kevin that the positives outweigh the negatives I meant it.
My point of this WHOLE thread was to make folks aware of the potentially 'bad' sitation...no matter how remote...the time to 'learn' about it is NOT when it happens!...education and knowledge is what I am advocating here...and I feel that Hensley isn't doing enough to educate ALL owners...the ones that do not frequent these types of forums could certainly NOT know about this...and there are many that DO frequent these boards that simply have never had it happen to them and I pray that it never does...but as you can see...it IS REAL and can happen to anyone...so just because we think we have a safe hitch...which we do...under just the 'wrong' circumstances...it can turn bad quick...that's all...we need to help educate each other so if and when it happens...we know what is happening and what we should do to try and pull out of it.
To clear something up based on a PM I received...I am not saying that the hitch ITSELF generates the energy...it is the TT's weight that creates the energy thru the nature of moving at a slightly higher rate than the TV as the TV brakes or slows thru go pedal lift...and as the cams collapse ontop of themselves and SLAM the stop...it unloads that energy FROM THE TT onto the REAR OF THE TV...the hitch itself is the catalyst that allows that stored energy to be unloaded.
But don't take my words as I feel the hitch is bad...all I want to see is a more OPEN DIALOG about this VERY REAL 'feature'...that's all.
Thanks again to all you who posted your experiences...think about it...there are 10,000 HA owners...we are just a small percentage of them...and above you see TWO EXAMPLES from Les and Don that have had this happen to THEM and they are VERY experienced towers...
joe.
Good post to bring awareness to those who are not as "into" this as some of us....
And for those who are. The more we read, the more we learn, the more we post, the better we are from it. The ORF continues to do what it does best, help spread education and knowledge. It makes us think. (Plus some of us really get addicted to this....)
All posts do not apply to everyone, however bits and pieces of a lot of them do.
The more we help educate ourselves about what ever brand WD hitch and TV combination we have, the better we will be from it.
To your "bump" topic, other reasons to be aware of it:
What happens when the brake controller supply fuse blows?
What happens when a TT wiring short on the main feed line occurs?
What happens when you forgot to completely seat the 7 wire plug in TV receptacle?
The brake controller just plane dies?
While any of these events or others like them are not common, and may never come your way, they are not beyond occurring. They can happen on any brand hitch. Knowing your hitch and TV, thinking in advance, what would I do and what do I expect to happen?
Just pick the dry pavement scenario. It's enough. Then line up cars next to you, happening at 50 mph on the highway, then the down hill turn, ect. ect.
If you never knew of "the bump", would it startle you into doing something quick and wrong and then you created a situation. Maybe it's better to experience "the bump" in a safe setting to figure out what your rig will do or not.
Happy camping
John
PS. OK did you type all this in a campground on that new fancy Blackberry???
John & Cindy
2005 Ford F350 Super Duty, 4x4; 6.8L V10 with 4.10
CC, SB, Lariat & FX4 package
21,000 GCWR, 11,000 GVWR
Ford Tow Command
1,700# Reese HP hitch & HP Dual Cam
2 1/2" Towbeast Receiver
2004 Sunline Solaris T310SR
(I wish we where camping!)
No there is no way I'd be able to pen all that on my crackberry!
As I was typing my last response...my oldest was sitting next to me...she commented that she couldn't keep up with reading as I was typing too fast for her!
Anyway...THANKS for the added dialog.
Your examples of 'what can happen' are certainly real life scenarios and ones we need to think about BEFORE they happen...
Provoking THOUGHT was my intention with this thread. I've owned my HA since May and have logged 4500 miles since then...I've also read enough HA threads to know that while the 'bump' is made reference to in some discussions...most of the threads are dominated by two camps...HA owners that have experienced the superior sway control the hitch gives and non HA owners who can't see why you should have to spend that much for a hitch.
My post was geared towards HA owners to get them thinking about what they would do if an event as described by my scenarios or what happened to Les or Don or even YOUR scenarios. All of these CAN happen...I will state that not all or any will happen to EVERYONE...but if it happens to YOU (not John but the HA driver)...all I wanted was to possibly have you have thought about that scenario and what you would do...
Being prepared and ready for whatever life has to throw at us and John has added yet some more potentials to think about how we would handle applies to ALL THAT TOW...not just HA owners!!!
joe.
JBarca wrote:
Joe
What happens when the brake controller supply fuse blows?
What happens when a TT wiring short on the main feed line occurs?
What happens when you forgot to completely seat the 7 wire plug in TV receptacle?
The brake controller just plane dies?
Joe
What happens when the brake controller supply fuse blows?
What happens when a TT wiring short on the main feed line occurs?
What happens when you forgot to completely seat the 7 wire plug in TV receptacle?
The brake controller just plane dies?
OK, Line up the cars in front of you and let any of the very, very highly unusual events happen and you're in trouble with any hitch because at 50 mph you won't be able to stop.
I've owned the HA for 10 years and many miles. I had a brake controller that wouldn't allow you to have the trailer brakes lead the TV brakes and I had the bump. I bought a Jordan which solved that problem and haven't had a bump since, that was 10 years ago.
2004 33FKDS Present Sunnybrook
2001 30FKS 2nd Sunnybrook
1996 30FBS 1st Sunnybrook
"Wonderful" Hensley Arrow Hitch
Jordan Ultima Brake Control
2001 Ford F-250 7.3 Powerstroke
Words to live by "Don't squat with your spurs on"
.JPG)
Ehammond wrote:
OK, Line up the cars in front of you and let any of the very, very highly unusual events happen and you're in trouble with any hitch because at 50 mph you won't be able to stop.
OK, Line up the cars in front of you and let any of the very, very highly unusual events happen and you're in trouble with any hitch because at 50 mph you won't be able to stop.
The point I believe John was trying to make was that there are MANY 'potential' scenarios in which when towing a vehicle is inherently dangerous. Being prepared is our best defense.
While I agree with you that it is likely indepedent of WHICH hitch you have in the case above you are likely 'in-trouble'. I will contend that with a HA and the associated BUMP that will be non-existant with say a DC...a HA owner is likley in MORE TROUBLE than a DC owner.
The DC will likely not jacknife in this situation...but it certainly could. It is the SLAM of the BANG from the HA ALLOWING the stored TT energy to be UNLEASHED and EXERTED to the TV as the TV slows FAST and the TT is STILL moving at its prior to TV slowing rate of travel (i.e. FASTER THAN TV at this INSTANT in time)...that instantaneous 'thump' of the TT is what I'm talking about here.
Now granted with the DC you will likely (but not guaranteed) rear-end the car in front of you due to your elongated stopping distance from the brake controller failure...but it is my opinion with the HA...you will most likely be in a jacknife situation prior to rear-ending the car in front of you and entangling all the traffic surrounding you...in essence in this highly unlikely but POSSIBLE sitation...the HA will possibly cause MORE DAMAGE to those around you.
We are talking about hypothetical situations here...and how to prepare for them...as I said above...MOST will NEVER experience anything like this.
One feature I found I really wanted on my brake controller was to KNOW ahead of hitting my brakes that my connector had come out. Many brake controllers out on the market do NOT have that feature. My Prodigy DOES and that is one reason I like it...a small glance to the controller lets me know I have a connection. The time to know you don't have a connection is NOT when you NEED your TT brakes...now couple that with a HA and the BUMP and things get worse quick.
The down side of towing a TT with a DC and no TT brakes is that you have a longer stopping distance...in some cases you could rear-end someone if you are unfortunate to have that hypothetical situation happen to you.
The down side of towing a TT with a HA and no TT brakes is that you WILL GET A BUMP...how YOU handle that BUMP at 50, 60, 70 mph...is preparation.
joe.
The bump was enough along with the rough roads and no trailer brakes to overwhelm the traction of the van's rear tires and for the momentum of the trailer to try and pass the van. It was that close and I am sure the people behind the trailer while this happened would agree and thankfully none of them were forum members!
6MISFITZ wrote:
I-69 is certainly NOT one of the smoothest highways in Michigan and was under construction in more than one location but there was one section that was just BRUTAL outside Flint - near the 75 turn off for Pontiac IIRC. You were forced to drive on a barely one lane wide, uneven left paved shoulder while straddling the rumble strips that were not paved over. The vibrations set up by this section of road must have done something to the brake controller because when I needed brakes for slowed traffic ahead, trailer brakes were again absent despite a green light on the controller.
I felt the trailer come forward on the hitch and push to the van right. I let up on the brakes slightly, corrected my steering and even though I was not tailgating, the hole in traffic was now shrinking faster than we were slowing down. I cranked the controller gain, pushed the brakes harder and this time the trailer started pulling the rear of the van hard right (as though it was going to swap ends) and as this happened - I squeezed the trailer brake controller slider to FULL ON and we quickly stopped straight but one lane to the right of the rubber highway cones.....
Again I re-leveled the brake controller - put a small piece of tape on the level wheel - which I gathered had rattled loose from the vibrations caused by the rumble strips and uneven left shoulder. I did not like the idea of van's rear end being pushed around that easily, so I backed off the W/D on the hitch about half a notch on the jacks to add weight to the van's rear axle, tested it with a stop almost at ABS levels and never had another brake or hitch issue for the rest of the trip.....
I-69 is certainly NOT one of the smoothest highways in Michigan and was under construction in more than one location but there was one section that was just BRUTAL outside Flint - near the 75 turn off for Pontiac IIRC. You were forced to drive on a barely one lane wide, uneven left paved shoulder while straddling the rumble strips that were not paved over. The vibrations set up by this section of road must have done something to the brake controller because when I needed brakes for slowed traffic ahead, trailer brakes were again absent despite a green light on the controller.
I felt the trailer come forward on the hitch and push to the van right. I let up on the brakes slightly, corrected my steering and even though I was not tailgating, the hole in traffic was now shrinking faster than we were slowing down. I cranked the controller gain, pushed the brakes harder and this time the trailer started pulling the rear of the van hard right (as though it was going to swap ends) and as this happened - I squeezed the trailer brake controller slider to FULL ON and we quickly stopped straight but one lane to the right of the rubber highway cones.....
Again I re-leveled the brake controller - put a small piece of tape on the level wheel - which I gathered had rattled loose from the vibrations caused by the rumble strips and uneven left shoulder. I did not like the idea of van's rear end being pushed around that easily, so I backed off the W/D on the hitch about half a notch on the jacks to add weight to the van's rear axle, tested it with a stop almost at ABS levels and never had another brake or hitch issue for the rest of the trip.....
crappie_fisherman wrote:
Being prepared is our best defense.
While I agree with you that it is likely indepedent of WHICH hitch you have in the case above you are likely 'in-trouble'. I will contend that with a HA and the associated BUMP that will be non-existant with say a DC...a HA owner is likley in MORE TROUBLE than a DC owner.
joe.
Agreed but will amend that paragraph to include our old Equal-i-zer hitch as well.Being prepared is our best defense.
While I agree with you that it is likely indepedent of WHICH hitch you have in the case above you are likely 'in-trouble'. I will contend that with a HA and the associated BUMP that will be non-existant with say a DC...a HA owner is likley in MORE TROUBLE than a DC owner.
joe.
I have towed this trailer (not willingly) on snow and ice and found I slowed down more with the Hensley than with the EQ, can't tangibly explain why just the feel of it and when I say slowed down more, I was way below the speed limit to begin with. Stopped straight on black ice with both, but feel the friction of the EQ kept better angle control between the two vehicles than the HA.
No one hitch will ever guarantee no accident, so always tow accordingly!
Mike.
Mom, Dad, 4 kids, 2 Camping Dogs
Express 2500 LS (135"WB) 6.0L, 4.10, G80, PYO wheels, HENSLEY & McKesh
--------------------
MISFITZ RACING
MFCC Member
Rallies Attended 4, 7 Un-Rallies
6MISFITZ wrote:
I have towed this trailer (not willingly) on snow and ice and found I slowed down more with the Hensley than with the EQ, can't tangibly explain why just the feel of it and when I say slowed down more, I was way below the speed limit to begin with. Stopped straight on black ice with both, but feel the friction of the EQ kept better angle control between the two vehicles than the HA.
I have towed this trailer (not willingly) on snow and ice and found I slowed down more with the Hensley than with the EQ, can't tangibly explain why just the feel of it and when I say slowed down more, I was way below the speed limit to begin with. Stopped straight on black ice with both, but feel the friction of the EQ kept better angle control between the two vehicles than the HA.
Mike,
I believe you are absolutely correct in feeling that, "the friction of the EQ kept better angle control between the two vehicles than the HA." The EQ generates a large amount of yaw torque which tends to prevent relative yaw between TV and TT. The EQ's torque exists whether the TT is pushing forward on the hitch or pulling rearward on the hitch. The EQ's sway control ability is proactive because the yaw-resisting torque is present even when the TT is aligned directly behind the TV. It works to prevent the TT from moving off center even before it has moved.
The HA is not proactive because it does not produce a yaw-resisting torque when the TT is directly aligned behind the TV. The TT must move "off-center" before the HA can generate a restoring torque. AND, the restoring torque is present only if the TT is pulling rearward against the HA.
If the TT is allowed to push forward against the HA, the HA's linkage will tend to rotate and shift to the left or right. If the TT is pushing forward on the HA, the only thing which prevents the rear of the TT from swinging forward is the lateral force on the TT's tires. In the low-traction road conditions which you described, the lateral force on the tires would have been reduced and there would have been greater tendency for the HA-equipped TT to swing.
Any yaw slack in the HA's receiver/drawbar connection or in the drawbar/pinbox connection or any lateral slack between coupler and ball or any looseness of the struts will increase the danger of jackknife torques being produced if the TT is allowed to push against the HA. The HA's linkage is your friend when the TT is pulling rearward. If the TT is allowed to push forward, the linkage will become a destabilizing connection.
Ron
crappie_fisherman wrote:
The point I believe John was trying to make was that there are MANY 'potential' scenarios in which when towing a vehicle is inherently dangerous. Being prepared is our best defense.
joe.
Ehammond wrote:
OK, Line up the cars in front of you and let any of the very, very highly unusual events happen and you're in trouble with any hitch because at 50 mph you won't be able to stop.
OK, Line up the cars in front of you and let any of the very, very highly unusual events happen and you're in trouble with any hitch because at 50 mph you won't be able to stop.
The point I believe John was trying to make was that there are MANY 'potential' scenarios in which when towing a vehicle is inherently dangerous. Being prepared is our best defense.
joe.
Yes, Joe you are right. I was not singling out the HA. Hope it did not come across that way.
Point being: Totally understand your rig the best you know how to. If you do not know, spend some time learning. Think to yourself, what would I do if that happened?
By being able to talk about this kind of stuff in an open and constructive way, we get to think about this in advance.
Sort of like a post about a month ago when we saw a 2500HD and a Komfort TT rolled over posted on the forum. Danger post We see one of these bad things about every Summer. Well I went out to my truck and said, what if I had to do a panic stop, can I reach the brake controller like instinct?
Well I reached just fine,and instinct kicked into automatic, but the way I had mounted the controller when you hit the manual button in a panic and on an angle, the button locked solid.
OMG!!! It use to look like this. Never again will I mount it like that. You reach fast for that button and jammo, it locks up if you hit it hard on an angle. Tried it then 6 times and it locked 4 of the 6 and would not compress. 
So now it looks like this. No time to fiddle and unlock the button when odds are against you. Plus it took me 2 hands to unlock the button.
That post may have saved my rig as I took action before the bad day came I may have needed to use it. And I thought I had that area covered. Guess not.
Know your towing rig and how it reacts. It is your best defense. Does not matter what brand you own.
John
PS Joe, the Jordan also has a little green light to tell you the 7 wire is plugged in.
* This post was edited 10/01/07 08:02pm by JBarca *
JBarca wrote:
Yes, Joe you are right. I was not singling out the HA. Hope it did not come across that way.
Point being: Totally understand your rig the best you know how to. If you do not know, spend some time learning. Think to yourself, what would I do if that happened?
By being able to talk about this kind of stuff in an open and constructive way, we get to think about this in advance.
Yes, Joe you are right. I was not singling out the HA. Hope it did not come across that way.
Point being: Totally understand your rig the best you know how to. If you do not know, spend some time learning. Think to yourself, what would I do if that happened?
By being able to talk about this kind of stuff in an open and constructive way, we get to think about this in advance.
John,
That is the precise reason I typed all those words above...to OPENLY and CONSTRUCTIVELY discuss this topic. The HA presents a unique 'feature' that when I called Hensley I got a 'spin' IMO on how a 'lesser hitch would have...yadda yadda...' Not the open discussion we are having here about the REAL BUMP and the associated BAD things that CAN happen...I've said it above numerous times...it WILL LIKELY NEVER HAPPEN TO YOU...but if it does...wouldn't you want to be prepared???
Look at your example...you 'thought' you had the controller mounted in a way where you could 'simply' depress your manual button...well in the trials you performed after a thought provoking post...you figured out a subtlety in button depression and finger angle (although with you being a previous New Yorker...I would have thought you had figured out FINGER ANGLE long ago! LOL)
Glad you did your test and figured that out under 'controlled' conditions versus when playing in traffic!
JBarca wrote:
PS Joe, the Jordan also has a little green light to tell you the 7 wire is plugged in.
PS Joe, the Jordan also has a little green light to tell you the 7 wire is plugged in.
My Prodigy has a .C. when connected...I view the C as COMFORT!
When NOT connected I get . . (two dots since I run boost) or . (single dot with NO boost) Either of last two conditions (only dots and NO C) tells the operator that the plug is NOT in at a glance.With the HA I truly feel knowledge of a plug falling or getting yank out in a tight turn is more critical than a traditional ball mounted hitch due to the associated bump and possible bad results...not that not having TT brakes with a DC or Equal-i-zier and NO BRAKES is a treat I'm sure...
Thanks for the interchange in this thread...it adds the type of data I was hoping to discuss...'WHAT-IF' and 'WHAT WOULD YOU DO?'
joe.
Ron Gratz wrote:
Ron
Ron
Ron,
Thank you for chiming in...I believe what you describe in the DYNAMICS OF THE BUMP is precisely the type of open discussion I was hoping to get with Sean or the others at Hensley when I called.
Instead I got the 'lesser hitch' spin.
If you look at some of the posts above...they are SENIOR MEMBERS here that have experienced hair raising and probably short cleaning required experiences when the 'bump' appeared. Yet there is a cryptic blurb in the HA manual about brake controller lead. Well look at some of the examples above...the brake controllers WERE SET PROPERLY according to the HA manual!
Your description of how the linkage operates and the conditions it is effective is what my engineering mind enjoys reading to help me PREPARE as I tool down the road at 17,000#'s with the three most important people in my life...
Had I left this alone and gone by my 'answer' from Hensley...I'd be tooling down the road and un-prepared for what could happen.
Would I give up my HA...NO...not as long as I tug a tag along. I do feel the benefits far outweigh the negatives...but there ARE negatives and the answers I got from Hensley personnel lead me to further question this phenom.
How many of the 10,000 HA owners actually understand the dynamics of the bump and what to do if it happens to them?...if they only read the HA manual...I'd say not very prepared...I know I wasn't!
Thanks again for the contributions above!
joe.
- Chris
Probably the best way to do that is to set your BC so that it's not leading the truck brakes, then find a little hill with a curve on it and BE CAREFUL!!!
Les
crappie fisherman wrote:
....although with you being a previous New Yorker...I would have thought you had figured out FINGER ANGLE long ago! LOL....
....although with you being a previous New Yorker...I would have thought you had figured out FINGER ANGLE long ago! LOL....
OK, let's tone it down before I have to report you to the moderator. I happen to know that our Mod has a "zero tolerance" policy for such slights against those of us who are geographically disadvantaged by landscape fixtures other than cornstalks......hahahahaha
LAdams wrote:
Probably the best way to do that is to set your BC so that it's not leading the truck brakes, then find a little hill with a curve on it and BE CAREFUL!!!
Probably the best way to do that is to set your BC so that it's not leading the truck brakes, then find a little hill with a curve on it and BE CAREFUL!!!
Although the conditions you describe will probably produce "the bump", I would suggest a better (and safer) idea would be at a much slower speed. Go to a large empty parking lot, disconnect the 7-pin connector to the TT to disable the TT brakes. Accelerate to about 5mph, then stop the TV hard. You will feel the bump, and you will feel the lateral push on the truck in the seat of your pants, but there won't be enough momentum to break the truck's rear loose, even if the pavement is wet. Much better idea than trying to dial in these conditions on the highway, IMO.
BurbMan wrote:
OK, let's tone it down before I have to report you to the moderator. I happen to know that our Mod has a "zero tolerance" policy for such slights against those of us who are geographically disadvantaged by landscape fixtures other than cornstalks......hahahahaha
OK, let's tone it down before I have to report you to the moderator. I happen to know that our Mod has a "zero tolerance" policy for such slights against those of us who are geographically disadvantaged by landscape fixtures other than cornstalks......hahahahaha
You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? ...
Then who the heck else are you talkin' to? ...
You talkin' to me?...
Well I'm the only one here. Who do you think you're talking to?
aay fuhgitaboudit...
cornstalks? ... that's funny ...
* This post was edited 10/03/07 01:10pm by an administrator/moderator *
JBarca wrote:
Yes, Joe you are right. I was not singling out the HA. Hope it did not come across that way.
crappie_fisherman wrote:
The point I believe John was trying to make was that there are MANY 'potential' scenarios in which when towing a vehicle is inherently dangerous. Being prepared is our best defense.
joe.
Ehammond wrote:
OK, Line up the cars in front of you and let any of the very, very highly unusual events happen and you're in trouble with any hitch because at 50 mph you won't be able to stop.
OK, Line up the cars in front of you and let any of the very, very highly unusual events happen and you're in trouble with any hitch because at 50 mph you won't be able to stop.
The point I believe John was trying to make was that there are MANY 'potential' scenarios in which when towing a vehicle is inherently dangerous. Being prepared is our best defense.
joe.
Yes, Joe you are right. I was not singling out the HA. Hope it did not come across that way.
John,
Sorry...I should have given you a little more information. Eddie (aka EHammond) is annoyed at me for suggesting that there is a possible flaw in the HA under DECELERATION conditions or for that matter under the conditions you added. He believes he is fully prepared and mostly immune to any type of the situations I, Les, Don, Mike or any of the folks in the links I provided in my first post...he feels this will never happen to him and thus he is engaged in a 'defend' Hensley mode both here and over on sunnybrooktalk.com
you see...as Sean pointed out that adults should be able to engage in dialog without edits...it seems over on the sunnybrooktalk forum...even mentioning that these REAL situations EXIST is cause for being labeled a troublemaker and various other names.
So you kinda got a shot that was aimed at me...sorry for you taking that one...
Eddie...I hope you are one of the lucky ones that continues to experience trouble free towing. And if you happen to experience some of what others HAVE...I pray there is no one around to be caught up in your misfortune.
EDIT: For everyone's benefit as to what I am talking about...I resurrected an OLD post. Here is a link to page 4...the link will take you to page 4 but you will need to scroll down a little to find mine...BTW...my screen name over there is X_Hemi_Guy...and the ensuing discussions. Eddie has a few posts in there too...he is a staunch HA supporter as you can tell...
sunnybrooktalk.com/hensley slander post
EDIT on the Edit:
The wagons have been circled over on sunnybrooktalk.com. I've gotten quite a few PMs and open forum attacks over there in my attempt to discuss this REAL phenom on a forum that is supposedly dedicted to the HA. Apparently 'over there' they just like to sing the 'praises'.
I attempted to discuss the topic over there...and much like Sean felt his need to drop out of discussions over here...I am going to drop out of discussions over there...sorry guys...even my even tempered manner has a limit...attacks are coming from all angles over there...Sean attempted to fly cover but the masses are pouring a nice cold glass of cool aid as I type to have with dinner tonight...I'm not into that...sorry.
if anyone else wishes to discuss this over there...have at it...but be warned if you follow that link...differing opinions on the HA over there are worse than gas v diesel over here!
End second edit...
joe.
* This post was last edited 10/03/07 02:12pm by crappie_fisherman *
BurbMan wrote:
Although the conditions you describe will probably produce "the bump", I would suggest a better (and safer) idea would be at a much slower speed. Go to a large empty parking lot, disconnect the 7-pin connector to the TT to disable the TT brakes. Accelerate to about 5mph, then stop the TV hard. You will feel the bump, and you will feel the lateral push on the truck in the seat of your pants, but there won't be enough momentum to break the truck's rear loose, even if the pavement is wet. Much better idea than trying to dial in these conditions on the highway.
Although the conditions you describe will probably produce "the bump", I would suggest a better (and safer) idea would be at a much slower speed. Go to a large empty parking lot, disconnect the 7-pin connector to the TT to disable the TT brakes. Accelerate to about 5mph, then stop the TV hard. You will feel the bump, and you will feel the lateral push on the truck in the seat of your pants, but there won't be enough momentum to break the truck's rear loose, even if the pavement is wet. Much better idea than trying to dial in these conditions on the highway.
I concur Don - a much better way to feel the bump than an actual road test... But also figure that the a real bump that could occur at highway speed is apt to be a lot more severe than than this scenario, but this way is a LOT safer...
Les
crappie_fisherman wrote:
Sorry...I should have given you a little more information. Eddie (aka EHammond) is annoyed at me for suggesting that there is a possible flaw in the HA under DECELERATION conditions or for that matter under the conditions you added.
Sorry...I should have given you a little more information. Eddie (aka EHammond) is annoyed at me for suggesting that there is a possible flaw in the HA under DECELERATION conditions or for that matter under the conditions you added.
I was not annoyed. I simply disagreed with someone who presents his opinion as fact and he couldn't live with that. He is leaving sunnybrooktalk.com because he can't peddle his opinion as fact without being challanged.
I am not as you stated a defender of Hensley, it's record speaks for itself. As a 10 year owner I only know what it will do if set up right.
I am now annoyed that he feels the need to come back over here and run me down to what he considers to be a more friendly(where they don't question your "facts" forum.
crappie_fisherman wrote:
Eddie...I hope you are one of the lucky ones that continues to experience trouble free towing. And if you happen to experience some of what others HAVE....
Eddie...I hope you are one of the lucky ones that continues to experience trouble free towing. And if you happen to experience some of what others HAVE....
I'm sorry, I must have missed the post where it is documented that someone had an accident that was actually caused by the "bump" I'm sure someone will link that thread.
crappie_fisherman wrote:
Eddie has a few posts in there too...he is a staunch HA supporter as you can tell....
Eddie has a few posts in there too...he is a staunch HA supporter as you can tell....
Again, I am a supporter of facts and not just opinions offered as facts, especially when I personally know it to be that just that, opinions.
Ehammond wrote:
I'm sorry, I must have missed the post where it is documented that someone had an accident that was actually caused by the "bump" I'm sure someone will link that thread.
I'm sorry, I must have missed the post where it is documented that someone had an accident that was actually caused by the "bump" I'm sure someone will link that thread.
Following are several reports of accidents or near accidents which occurred while braking rigs equipped with Hensley Arrow hitches. I will not claim that any of these was caused by the "bump". If I did that the immediate response would be a demand for proof of cause. As we are all aware, such proof is hard to obtain.
All of these loss of control and near loss of control accidents had two things in common -- the hitch was a Hensley Arrow and the incidents occurred while braking. Each of us is capable of forming his or her own opinion regarding whether the "bump" was a contributing factor.
Mountaineer/HA/Airstream This was a jackknife accident which occurred during breaking.
Expedition/HA/Airstream The article does not state that the hitch was a Hensley Arrow. A friend of the driver posted that information in an Airstream forum. According to the Chief of Police, 'It appears Allen "tried to brake too quickly" as she neared the officers, causing the trailer to sway.
Expedition/HA/Sunnybrook - Post #5 Driver started to brake and lost control of the trailer and it slid on its side down the median.
DodgeTruck/HA/Airstream - July 14,2005 A deer ran across the road and everyone put their brakes on.---We ran into the concrete divider---The trailer fish-tailed---
HENSLEY ARROW INVOLVED IN ACCIDENT Braked in a curve and lost control.
???/HA/??? Braking caused bent strut and sheared bolts. No accident involved.
ExpressVan/HA/ProwlerRegalSevere Hensley Bump when brake controller did not work. No accident involved.
"Bump" Report by LAdams Please note this statement: "In this writers opinion, that bump is highly suspect in at least one instance I read about on these forums and is also responsible for my nearly loosing control of my rig and what could have been an unfortunate outcome..."
Ron
Ehammond wrote:
---During the panic braking there was no bump no jack knifing no nothing.---
---During the panic braking there was no bump no jack knifing no nothing.---
In a previous post you said you are a supporter of fact.
Let's assume that your particular TV/HA/TT combination did, in fact, exhibit no bump and no jackknifing during the panic stop.
Are you implying that, in your particular case, since you did not experience the bump, it is not possible for others to experience it?
If so, how do you explain all the reports from HA users who claim to have encountered the "Hensley bump".
Ron
Ehammond wrote:
I'm sorry, I must have missed the post where it is documented that someone had an accident that was actually caused by the "bump" I'm sure someone will link that thread.
We had a Tekonsha Envoy brake controller issue that did not give us advanced warning that it would not automatically activate the trailer brakes for our stop. The bump from the Hensley in conjunction with a very rough and uneven / un-level widened shoulder was more than severe enough to almost cause our van and trailer to roll over. The only thing that saved us was quickly moving the manual trailer brake lever to maximum. It was as I said earlier, THAT CLOSE.I'm sorry, I must have missed the post where it is documented that someone had an accident that was actually caused by the "bump" I'm sure someone will link that thread.
There was no road crew working on the right side of the rubber cones of which my trailer took out two, no State Trooper behind me to back up my story (not that you would take their word anyway) and we did not roll over, so my apologies for not crashing to give you a document!
My family and I can all vouch for what we experienced, so keep believing what you keep telling yourself and don't try and give me my opinion.
Mike.
6MISFITZ wrote:
Thanks Ron but I have to vent....Mike.
Thanks Ron but I have to vent....Mike.
Mike,
Sorry to have to have you go thru that again. The facts ARE clearly in this thread...but thank you for posting AGAIN.
Ron,
Thanks for chiming in.
joe.
Note: Due to invalid formatting, all formatting has been ignored.
Ron Gratz wrote:
In a previous post you said you are a supporter of fact.
Let's assume that your particular TV/HA/TT combination did, in fact, exhibit no bump and no jackknifing during the panic stop.
Are you implying that, in your particular case, since you did not experience the bump, it is not possible for others to experience it?
If so, how do you explain all the reports from HA users who claim to have encountered the "Hensley bump".
Ron
Ehammond wrote:
---During the panic braking there was no bump no jack knifing no nothing.---
---During the panic braking there was no bump no jack knifing no nothing.---
In a previous post you said you are a supporter of fact.
Let's assume that your particular TV/HA/TT combination did, in fact, exhibit no bump and no jackknifing during the panic stop.
Are you implying that, in your particular case, since you did not experience the bump, it is not possible for others to experience it?
If so, how do you explain all the reports from HA users who claim to have encountered the "Hensley bump".
Ron
I'm saying that with a properly set up BC you will not have it under a braking conditing.
Any way my question after reading through this post is: Since my TV is 2500 Chevy w/Allison tranny should I be overly concerned of experiencing the "bump" when the Ally 'brakes' on a decline? If so, what preventative measures could be taken?
TV: 05 Chevy 2500 8.1L
TT: 2005 Citation--LYTR
Hensley Arrow and P3
crappie_fisherman wrote:
Snip...
John,
Sorry...I should have given you a little more information.
Snip..
So you kinda got a shot that was aimed at me...sorry for you taking that one...
joe.
Snip...
John,
Sorry...I should have given you a little more information.
Snip..
So you kinda got a shot that was aimed at me...sorry for you taking that one...
joe.
Joe
No problem. I know how to duck.....
I did follow your link. WOW, that just burned about 2 hours of my limited RV.Net habit time....
Having been around machinery all my life, there is one thing I have learned over and over. If one thinks they have it all figure out, well, soon that machine will prove you wrong in a heartbeat....
It's a machine, they all have some level of issues. Man has not yet invented the perfect one. Best to understand what you can so it all works in your favor.
OK now to the wise crack about the finger and New York a page or 2 back.... Don helped me out there. AND I just happened to know some one else who use to be in the northeast from a state that started with New and was not a York...
I remember vividly to this day, driving on the Jersey turnpike heading home from a service call at around 5:00PM the Wednesday before Thanksgiving from Avenel, stuck in traffic 6 lanes heading north, 4 hours going no where... finally I hit the state line and all I can say is, I Love New York!
I reached I87 and the traffic mess broke free and I was home bound. YES!!! I think I used about 11 fingers that day.... you weren't out on the road then where you??? About 1983 I think and I was driving my 1980 Ferd F100 PU..... 300 cc straight 6 with a 3 speed with over drive. Great turck.
Go camping, have more fun
John
Ehammond wrote:
I'm saying that with a properly set up BC you will not have it under a braking conditing.
In an absolutely perfect world YES, so long as you have a quality proportional (not a timed) brake controller and so long as the trailer brakes (including the magnets, wires, linkage, pad or shoe material) and trailer brake controller NEVER NEVER have a problem.I'm saying that with a properly set up BC you will not have it under a braking conditing.
Not many people live in your world.
Sure2rain, I have never had an issue with the H bump by shifting down a gear for grade braking but then I don't have the Allison. Hopefully another forum member who does have one will chime in with their experience but I doubt it produces anywhere near the stopping force as when using a firm application of the brake pedal.
Mike.
* This post was edited 10/04/07 06:15am by 6MISFITZ *
6MISFITZ wrote:
Ehammond wrote:
I'm saying that with a properly set up BC you will not have it under a braking conditing.
In an absolutely perfect world YES, so long as you have a quality proportional (not a timed) brake controller and so long as the trailer brakes (including the magnets, wires, linkage, pad or shoe material) and trailer brake controller NEVER NEVER have a problem..I'm saying that with a properly set up BC you will not have it under a braking conditing.
It don't take a perfect world. It takes the right equipment and proper maintenance.
6MISFITZ wrote:
Not many people live in your world.
Mike.
Not many people live in your world.
Mike.
You're right. Most people want the cheapest plug and play BC they can get, never do any maintenance on their brakes, then blame someone or something else if things go wrong.
Ron Gratz wrote:
In a previous post you said you are a supporter of fact.
Let's assume that your particular TV/HA/TT combination did, in fact, exhibit no bump and no jackknifing during the panic stop.
Are you implying that, in your particular case, since you did not experience the bump, it is not possible for others to experience it?
If so, how do you explain all the reports from HA users who claim to have encountered the "Hensley bump".
Ron
Ehammond wrote:
---During the panic braking there was no bump no jack knifing no nothing.---
---During the panic braking there was no bump no jack knifing no nothing.---
In a previous post you said you are a supporter of fact.
Let's assume that your particular TV/HA/TT combination did, in fact, exhibit no bump and no jackknifing during the panic stop.
Are you implying that, in your particular case, since you did not experience the bump, it is not possible for others to experience it?
If so, how do you explain all the reports from HA users who claim to have encountered the "Hensley bump".
Ron
Ehammond, please respond to this post.
Ehammond wrote:
How about a statement from one of the accident victims saying that was a bump before we went out of control. Without something like that all you have is speculation.
How about a statement from one of the accident victims saying that was a bump before we went out of control. Without something like that all you have is speculation.
Your narrow focus on the use of the word, "bump", seems to be obscuring your ability to see the point of this thread. The point, once again, is that the four-bar linkage of the Hensley Arrow can cause potentially dangerous forces and torques if the trailer is allowed to push against the hitch.
It makes no difference whether the action is called "bump" or "banging" or "slamming" or "jolt" or "feature" or anything else. The point is that there have been several accidents or near accidents which occurred with a Hensley Arrow hitch when braking.
You might want to go back and re-read the previous posts from Hensley Arrow owners describing the loss of control and near loss of control when braking. You might want to ask Les Adams or one of the others if they think it makes a difference whether the action is called a "bump". Maybe we should just refer to it as a "Hensley linkage related potential loss of control while braking".
Ron
Ehammond wrote:
I'm saying that with a properly set up BC you will not have it under a braking conditing.
I'm saying that with a properly set up BC you will not have it under a braking conditing.
You seem to be one of the fortunate few who have a trailer braking system which performs flawlessly 100% of the time.
For the benefit of Open Roads Forum members, could you please provide all the details of how to install, adjust, operate, and maintain a trailer braking system so that you have 100% assurrance that the trailer will never push against the hitch?
Ron
Ehammond, your ability to accurately diagnose all of the variables in every occurrence through your computer screen without being there in person with a vehicle shop manual and tools to physically investigate, measure, test and pass or fail each part or system without ever being wrong and pronounce judgment or dismiss it as not having the right equipment or lack of maintenance issue (without asking for proof of any receipts of same) leads me to wonder about your motive for adding to this post?
Mike.
Ehammond wrote:
I'm saying that with a properly set up BC you will not have it under a braking condition.
I'm saying that with a properly set up BC you will not have it under a braking condition.
You are 100% correct. BUT, that's all crappie fisherman was saying from the beginning. This was a never a HA bashing thread, the only point was an advisory to HA owners telling everyone to be sure their brake controllers are adjusted properly.
It makes me laugh that you guys are burning up page after page arguing while you are both saying the same thing.
sure2rain wrote:
Any way my question after reading through this post is: Since my TV is 2500 Chevy w/Allison tranny should I be overly concerned of experiencing the "bump" when the Ally 'brakes' on a decline? If so, what preventative measures could be taken?
Any way my question after reading through this post is: Since my TV is 2500 Chevy w/Allison tranny should I be overly concerned of experiencing the "bump" when the Ally 'brakes' on a decline? If so, what preventative measures could be taken?
Same scenario here, just bought a Hensley and it is sitting in the garage waiting to be installed in the spring. I also have the Allison tranny with grade braking. Since I happen to live in the mountainous northwest do I need to be overly concerned about the "bump" when the Allison shifts down?
2007 Sierra Classic 2500HD 4x4 CC LB D/A
2005 Arctic Fox 32D
However, my particular situation happened at a deceleration rate much higher than that what could ever be achieved with our van's 4L80E transmission alone or in the D/A dually I drove.
Don, see Joe's Case #1 - Garfield's brake controller adjusted properly but not used prior to initiating the turn.
M.
* This post was edited 10/04/07 10:08am by 6MISFITZ *
JBarca wrote:
Joe
No problem. I know how to duck.....
I did follow your link. WOW, that just burned about 2 hours of my limited RV.Net habit time....
crappie_fisherman wrote:
So you kinda got a shot that was aimed at me...sorry for you taking that one...
joe.
So you kinda got a shot that was aimed at me...sorry for you taking that one...
joe.
Joe
No problem. I know how to duck.....
I did follow your link. WOW, that just burned about 2 hours of my limited RV.Net habit time....
WOW is right...did you get offered any Kool-Aide when you were over there?...afterall…at Jim Jones Central (JJC) they bill them selves as the “The FRIENDLIEST RV forum on the Internet”…that’s obvious when you go read the posts over there.
JBarca wrote:
OK now to the wise crack about the finger and New York a page or 2 back.... Don helped me out there. AND I just happened to know some one else who use to be in the northeast from a state that started with New and was not a York...
OK now to the wise crack about the finger and New York a page or 2 back.... Don helped me out there. AND I just happened to know some one else who use to be in the northeast from a state that started with New and was not a York...
LOL…yeah but I was born and raised on the CORRECT side of that river!...but then in fairness to you…if you ask Don…upstaters aren’t ‘real’ New Yourkers…he has disavowed all ownership of Hilary!
JBarca wrote:
I remember vividly to this day, driving on the Jersey turnpike heading home from a service call at around 5:00PM the Wednesday before Thanksgiving from Avenel, stuck in traffic 6 lanes heading north, 4 hours going no where... finally I hit the state line and all I can say is, I Love New York! I reached I87 and the traffic mess broke free and I was home bound. YES!!!
I think I used about 11 fingers that day.... you weren't out on the road then where you???
I remember vividly to this day, driving on the Jersey turnpike heading home from a service call at around 5:00PM the Wednesday before Thanksgiving from Avenel, stuck in traffic 6 lanes heading north, 4 hours going no where... finally I hit the state line and all I can say is, I Love New York!
I reached I87 and the traffic mess broke free and I was home bound. YES!!! I think I used about 11 fingers that day.... you weren't out on the road then where you???
Well let’s see…a gazillion people heading NORTH out of NJ TOWARDS NY…hmmm…all those pushy New Yourkers getting out of MY state…too bad on Monday morning they would be heading BACK with you!
Well I grew up right next to Avenel…I went to Avenel Junior High…so I know the area WELL with which you speak…
JBarca wrote:
About 1983 I think and I was driving my 1980 Ferd F100 PU..... 300 cc straight 6 with a 3 speed with over drive. Great turck.
Go camping, have more fun
John
About 1983 I think and I was driving my 1980 Ferd F100 PU..... 300 cc straight 6 with a 3 speed with over drive. Great turck.
Go camping, have more fun
John
I KNEW there was a reason I liked you so much…you are a ferd guy from the start that just happens to be driving a girlie man bowtie for a short time period…!
BTW…that straight 6 was one of the strongest and most reliable motors ever produced…there were no loses in power as is inherent in a V block…sorry it went by the way-side...
sure2rain wrote:
…
…
mytrook wrote:
…
…
Sure2rain and mytrook,
Hopefully we haven’t scared you too much. The HA is a very effective hitch. Under the conditions where the ally ‘can’ downshift is where you need to be cautious…the trick is to be slightly accelerating if possible as you enter a curve or if that isn’t possible…ensure that you are at least braking AND your controller is set to LEAD. With my Prodigy…small light numerous ‘taps’ will activate the brake light circuit ONLY and thus engage the BOOST feature. With other controllers there are varying ways to achieve ‘LEAD’ on the TT…but you need to be aware…that’s the point here…it wasn’t to debate…it was to educate…and provoke thought as to "what would I do under a situation like this?"…I’m glad your thought process recognized the intent...THANK YOU!
As you descend a grade and are in say 3rd gear…the hitch is actually in a ‘floating’ type condition (i.e. not tension and not compression at any instant in time). While both TV and TT are moving at the same rate of travel…there is some ‘float’ in the linkage. The HA design is MOST effective when in TENSION. My understanding in this ‘float’ condition…if you get hit with a strong cross-wind or a faster moving vehicle overcomes you and hits you with the ‘bow-wave’ when the linkage is ‘floating’…this could provide an input into your towing setup that could result in an instability that is DIFFERENT than when you are tooling down the road in a tensioned state with the HA providing its anti-sway characteristics...depending on what YOU do in that situation is where the scenario would go...
Whenever you are in a coasting type situation…you need to be aware of your surroundings…if you see a semi approaching in your mirrors…it would be advised (IMO) to slightly accelerate and tighten/tension the hitch point. Also be aware IMO of your tranny downshifting on downslopes in curves. The ally can do this on its own...but as Mike points out...not sure if enough deceleration is possible with a downshift...I honestly do not know...but not knowing when a downshift will occur may be enough to try and control the downshift...is that possible? My 4R100 won’t do that unless I have cruise control on…as cruise control will downshift to BOTH speed up and slow down your TV…so I rarely (but do sometimes) use cruise control on some of my marathon towing days when my right foot needs a little break…but mostly my cruise is OFF even on my 12-16 hour towing days…
So you both are correct IMO to ask what if with the ally…the faster deceleration of the TV when the trans downshifts ‘could’ upset the balance of the rig…again it depends on when it downshifts and what the conditions are…MOST situations will have no ill effects…but again…life is not always ‘perfect’…so just being aware of your equipment and attempting to understand the situations you are in puts you MILES AHEAD of others…my hats off to you for asking in this dangerous thread topic!
If there are others less brave that are reading and have questions…please PM myself or Ron Gratz or any of the others that have provided what you feel is constructive info…I’m not so ‘DENSE’ to believe everyone believes everything I write…so you can form your own opinion and PM who you feel will give you the answers best.
Questions like the last two posters asked is PRECISELY why I penned this thread…as I feel this topic isn’t very well addressed in the Hensley literature…okay I’ll add a little more fuel…I can’t resist…Rusty and WV can stop reading here…
This discussion has a new ‘twist’ on the HA debate...Ron Gratz and Tim Slaxon (both of which readily admit to NOT having owned a HA...no secret there) have debated this before...THIS debate here takes on a new flavor if you will. ME...a HA OWNER 'questioning' that little manufacturers 'blurb' in the manual about brake controller LEAD. WHY DID THEY PUT IT THERE?...well they put it there I feel because they KNOW that under BRAKING or PUSHING conditions the HA LOSES its superior ability to KEEP THE TRAILER BEHIND YOU...that's why...it really is THAT SIMPLE…Hensley KNOWS there is an issue under CERTAIN conditions…is it that hard to believe that something someone paid $3K for isn’t perfect???...well get this…it ISN’T!!!
So if the mfg KNOWS that this is a limitation...WHY DO OTHERS RESIST and believe it can never happen to them?...That is the gist of this whole bash Ron Gratz early and Joe late post over at JJC…denial…
Sorry…couldn’t help myself!
Joe.
LOLEven us DC owners know when to call it quits!
but this is the most informative HA thread I have ever read.
I will admit, this entire thread did make me question my HA purchase just a bit. However, there is not a "perfect" towing system out there and the best you can do is be educated about the system you are chosing to use. With that said the important points I am taking away from this are proper BC setup and being aware of your truck, trailer and environment.
dodge guy wrote:
Even us DC owners know when to call it quits! but this is the most informative HA thread I have ever read.
Even us DC owners know when to call it quits!
but this is the most informative HA thread I have ever read.Kevin,
Hey I 'used' to own a DC...and they don't generate NEAR the passions the Hensley does...
When you said most informative...what did you really mean? (btw that is a serious question!
... I am intersted...) joe.
I was joking when I said about "knowing when to call it quits" and yes HA owners are very passionate about thier hitches.
I really did mean "informitive" I`ve read more honest opinions about the HA here than I have since I came to this site way back when! such as the HA does have a drawback or two under certain conditions that many may not ever see. and yes the pluses will always out number the negative (notice singular), but it`s nice to have people aware of what could happen. too many people just install the hitch and leave thier lives in the Hensly`s hands (or is it hitch LOL)!
So yes, This really is an informitive thread and I hope it stays going in that direction.
I am usually one of the first ones to "ruffle some feathers" in fun of course
. but this time I`m leaving all that out here, just because of the threads honesty!
mytrook wrote:
With that said the important points I am taking away from this are proper BC setup and being aware of your truck, trailer and environment.
With that said the important points I am taking away from this are proper BC setup and being aware of your truck, trailer and environment.
mytrook,
With those points you are miles ahead.
I'm glad my thread didn't scare you. The benefits of the HA under the majority of towing miles (i.e. tensioned) FAR OUTWEIGH IMO the negative...The point you have pulled out of this entangled thread is the right one...as the person in charge of THEIR TV/TT combo...it is your responsibility to 'try' and understand as much as you can about your equipment. Ignoring an inherent design 'feature' is foolish (IMO). Knowledge, forethought and preparation for those scenarios that CAN and HAVE happened to others is how we learn. Sharing these experiences in an open forum here is where we ALL learn. My quest in life is to try and learn something each and everyday I am blessed to be on this earth...
As far as your trans...I would say the best thing to do is avoid cruise if you can...because when you are on cruise...the truck will respond autonomously to KEEP THE SPEED SET. On an incline...the sudden downshift to gain speed could spin the rear wheels...and you now know the possible downshift on the decline with a HA.
You have chosen to purchase one of the BEST hitches out there for controlling sway...knowing its limitations is simply something we need to do.
Again I am glad this post didn't scare you off.
On the Prodigy...
I normally run Boost 1. On steeper descents I will bump the boost to Boost 2.
CLICK HERE for an explaination of boost settings.
if you have ANY questions on that link...please let me know.
Boost is a very nice feature on the Prodigy and one that you should figure out how to use correctly...it WILL give you some 'tug' in campgrounds or around your neighborhood (i.e. under ~5mph)...that is to be expected with what it is designed to do. Many simply do not like the tug...
Thanks again for the response...I'm glad you stuck around and didn't get scared off.
One of the only hotter passionate topics that you could have stepped into would be one of the following:
- Gas vs Diesel
- Ford vs Dodge vs GM
- New Jersey vs New Yourk
joe.
dodge guy wrote:
I really did mean "informitive" I`ve read more honest opinions about the HA here than I have since I came to this site way back when!
I really did mean "informitive" I`ve read more honest opinions about the HA here than I have since I came to this site way back when!
Kevin,
Thank you...I thought that was what you meant...You and I can usually communicate very well...but in this thread I wasn't sure!...
Thanks again...
joe.
A properly setup Dual Cam should not result in a rig that is swerving and unstable when trucks pass. Switching to a Hensley may mask the problem but something is not right (likely with tongue weight or the WD setup).
The Hensley is a very good hitch but it's certainly not a cure-all.
Mike
sure2rain wrote:
I just bought and installed a HA (not road tested yet). Replaced Reese HP dual cam because, for my particular situation, the dual cams were not preventing the TT from swerving. Almost lost the rig on a trip this June when passed by a semi.
Any way my question after reading through this post is: Since my TV is 2500 Chevy w/Allison tranny should I be overly concerned of experiencing the "bump" when the Ally 'brakes' on a decline? If so, what preventative measures could be taken?
I just bought and installed a HA (not road tested yet). Replaced Reese HP dual cam because, for my particular situation, the dual cams were not preventing the TT from swerving. Almost lost the rig on a trip this June when passed by a semi.
Any way my question after reading through this post is: Since my TV is 2500 Chevy w/Allison tranny should I be overly concerned of experiencing the "bump" when the Ally 'brakes' on a decline? If so, what preventative measures could be taken?
2005 Chevrolet Suburban K2500 LT (8.1 liter with 4.10 gears)
2004 Starcraft Homestead 29BHS (16,000 pounds combined)
Twin Honda EU2000i Generators - 12' Porta-Bote
Prodigy / Putnam XDR / Equal-i-zer
SoCal Family Campers
Mike Schriber wrote:
The Hensley is a very good hitch but it's certainly not a cure-all.
Mike
The Hensley is a very good hitch but it's certainly not a cure-all.
Mike
...which their video will lead you to believe it is. I think the Hensley DVD is a bit overkill in giving too much peace of mind.
Drew
Drew & Delia
2008 BABY Just Born Sep 8, 2008!
2008 Jayco Eagle 328 RLS
2005 RAM 3500 4x4 DRW CTD <-- New Truck!
Joe: Who's there?
Repo Man: Repo man
Joe: What do you want?
Repo Man: We're here for your soap box sir.
Joe: What???? Nooooooooooo.......
BurbMan wrote:
You are 100% correct. BUT, that's all crappie fisherman was saying from the beginning. This was a never a HA bashing thread, the only point was an advisory to HA owners telling everyone to be sure their brake controllers are adjusted properly.---
Ehammond wrote:
I'm saying that with a properly set up BC you will not have it under a braking condition.
I'm saying that with a properly set up BC you will not have it under a braking condition.
You are 100% correct. BUT, that's all crappie fisherman was saying from the beginning. This was a never a HA bashing thread, the only point was an advisory to HA owners telling everyone to be sure their brake controllers are adjusted properly.---
Don,
Would it be fair to say that LAdams was not using a "properly set up BC" on those several occasions when he encountered the bump?
And, would it be fair to say that BurbMan was not using a "properly set up BC" when he initially got the bump nearly every time he hit the brakes and later when a bump destroyed his OEM receiver?
And, would it be fair to say that 6MISFITZ was not using a "properly set up BC" when the bump nearly resulted in a very serious accident?
These three ORF members all have a significant amount of towing experience. I believe each of them had done a great deal of towing before switching to the Hensley Arrow. I believe each of them would have been very conscientious about setting up the hitch and setting up the BC and would have paid heed to any and all warnings provided by the hitch manufacturer regarding safe use of the hitch.
If the above assumptions are correct, then I wonder why did these three experienced people encounter problems with the Hensley bump? If Les, Mike, and Don had problems, then I am very concerned about those who are much less experienced. Who is going to help them avoid potentially dangerous situations?
It is very easy to type the words, "properly set up BC". To achieve the level of "proper set up" needed in actual towing practice to ensure that a bump does not occur (especially for less experienced people) might be much more difficult. I think it is not in the best interest of towing safety to trivialize the issue by saying that all you need is a "properly set up BC".
As you have pointed out, Don, this thread was intended as an advisory. I hope it is serving that purpose.
Ron
Note: Due to invalid formatting, all formatting has been ignored.
Here are a few more:
* Hard to hitch on an angle
* Cant lower tongue as much on very uneven campsites (low on the rear side).
* Non-Adjustable Drop Bar
* Price (Of course)
* Additional Foot added to the towing length. This is actually a benifit for me since it allows me to open rear doors of my van or drop the tailgate of the pickup I use to have. With the DC, They would hit the jack.
* Extra 100lbs (can be good or bad I guess)
* Hensley Bump
Now for the good part:
* Spring Bars stay on the hitch
* Great Sway Control
* No greasy mess
* Silent Operation
Hitching difficulty is about the same as with the ball hitch. I bought one because our next Trailer will be over 30 feet. 3K is steep not to mention add tax since I live in MI. I held off and bought a 2 year old one for $1700.00.
Mike
BurbMan wrote:
*knock knock*
...
*knock knock*
...
You been sipping some Kool-Aide or just too much good ole long island water?
mytrook wrote:
Snip...
However, there is not a "perfect" towing system out there and the best you can do is be educated about the system you are choosing to use. With that said the important points I am taking away from this are proper BC setup and being aware of your truck, trailer and environment.
Snip...
However, there is not a "perfect" towing system out there and the best you can do is be educated about the system you are choosing to use. With that said the important points I am taking away from this are proper BC setup and being aware of your truck, trailer and environment.
Mytrook, well said and very open minded. Great response and so very true. Dead on.
I also noticed you have a Fox TT. Been looking at them since my TT maker went under last fall. The Fox is a very nice TT. Well built and quality on top of it. Good luck with your new rig.
To add to your great thoughts. Towing a TT is about how to get a total towing solution, not just the hitch in the middle.
Now to this guy...
crappie_fisherman wrote:
Snip...
One of the only hotter passionate topics that you could have stepped into would be one of the following:
New Jersey vs New Yourk
joe
Snip...
One of the only hotter passionate topics that you could have stepped into would be one of the following:
New Jersey vs New Yourk
joe
H'mmmm......
I'm thinking, wise crack soon to come..... Actually I thought you where going to add, "The year 2000 to 2006 NBS GM Receiver" Now there is some passion in that topic.....
John
FWIW We've been using a Hensley since 1997 and this is the second trailer it's been transplanted to. We average about 5K-7K miles per year towing on all different types of terrain and going through NYC (Cross Bronx Expwy)
Anyway, I have experienced the bump but not to the extent I've heard here as far as wanting to make the whole combo want to swap ends. Two main things come to mind as to when this has happened. One was when we first put the Hensley onto the new trailer andmissed tightening one of the struts. A definite no-no.
Any other time the culprit seems to have been not having the brakes set properly. I like to have the trailer brakes lead the TV brakes significantly. This was taught to me over 30 years ago by a gentleman I worked for in my late teens driving hauling boats around Loong Island.
I agree with the main idea that has been put forth here: I still love my Hensley, but every tow combo will have it's limitations no matter what. It's just the laws of physics at work.
The trick is minimizing your exposure and never being complacent about the size and weight of the combo you're driving.
Note: Due to invalid formatting, all formatting has been ignored.
* This post was edited 10/05/07 10:18am by crappie_fisherman *
Thank you for your time and effort! Your posts here were excellent and informative.. Perhaps the information here will prevent an accident or two, and that is much more important than the color of your hitch..
Dixon
crappie fisherman wrote:
Okay Don…fire away…
Okay Don…fire away…
Me? Why would I fire away? At what? I've been agreeing with you.
The only thing I will say is that I think the tone here has been a little too henny-penny-ish (the sky is falling) about the potential issues that the HB (Hensley Bump) could create. Yes, if your brake controller "takes a dump" as you say, that would be an issue, BUT, that would be an issue with any hitch. The only time the HB could be an issue, IMO, is when you slam on the TV brakes, and have no TT brakes (or an improperly adjusted controller) and allow the trailer to bump the TV.
If you realize you have no TT brakes, for whatever reason, the technique is to gradually slow the TV on initial brake application until the TT comes forward. Once the TT is against the cam stop, you can brake the TV as hard as you want without any subsequent bump or adverse effect on control of the TV.
It's almost like you need the "perfect storm" of conditions to a) create the HB, and b) be in a position where the HB causes serious consequences.
I applaud you for bringing this discussion to light, so that HA owners are aware of the potential for the HB. However, I don't think it's as serious of a "flaw", "risk", "danger", etc., as has been portrayed by the tone of the discussion.
If you are considering a PullRite, you should talk to Les, he had a PullRite and then switched to the HA. I think he posted a write-up somewhere on the towing forum when he first got the HA.
crappie_fisherman wrote:
...
Okay Don…fire away…but before you do…a little birdie told me that the fellows over on sunnybrooktalk have DELETED (i.e. REMOVED ALL REFERENCE TO) the ‘slander post’ I linked to above…perhaps they didn’t like being called on FACTS about the ‘bump’ feature and having it discussed in their home. What were Seans words…let me see…something to the effect of ‘letting adults discuss something’…seems like as long as it is a topic of ‘approval’ over there you can discuss it. I CHOSE to raise my head up into this topic and start a fire storm…it was obvious I was in the middle of home field over there and folks didn’t want to discuss a possible ‘bad’ feature…so I left and they were happy that I took my ‘differing’ opinion based on facts with me…now it seems they just wiped the whole record clean…very interesting indeed in a so called democracy…
Joe.
Joe,...
Okay Don…fire away…but before you do…a little birdie told me that the fellows over on sunnybrooktalk have DELETED (i.e. REMOVED ALL REFERENCE TO) the ‘slander post’ I linked to above…perhaps they didn’t like being called on FACTS about the ‘bump’ feature and having it discussed in their home. What were Seans words…let me see…something to the effect of ‘letting adults discuss something’…seems like as long as it is a topic of ‘approval’ over there you can discuss it. I CHOSE to raise my head up into this topic and start a fire storm…it was obvious I was in the middle of home field over there and folks didn’t want to discuss a possible ‘bad’ feature…so I left and they were happy that I took my ‘differing’ opinion based on facts with me…now it seems they just wiped the whole record clean…very interesting indeed in a so called democracy…
Joe.
I'd like to say that you didn't get the typical experience over at Sunnybrook Talk, but the reasons weren't what you've taken them to be. It is true that most of us over there share in common that we are Sunnybrook owners, so it benefits us to not alienate ourselves from one another probably moreso than it might in a forum such as the ORF.
The problem is that your impression was formed from a very short stint where you participated primarily in only one of thousands of threads. From the start you shared your good and useful information in such a way that it seemed you had a bone to grind.
If you took a look at Sunnybrook Talk right now, you'd see that the most active thread is decrying the removal of that thread you linked to. See What happened to the "Hot" HA thread. That thread grew as fast as any I have seen over there, accumulating 36 posts in less than 12 hours. Unfortunately, the owner of the servers SB Talk runs on removed it because of the disparaging nature of conversation, not the subject matter. In all the years I've participated over there, I've never seen that happen.
Perhaps a more friendly approach and taking on the manner of a visitor might've prevented our loss.
Tim -
wife Beverly & 2 boys who love camping
2002 K2500 Suburban 8.1L 4.10 Prodigy
2005 Sunnybrook 30FKS HP Dual Cam
Replaced 2000 Sunnybrook 26FK on 8/6/04
tluxon wrote:
---Unfortunately, the owner of the servers SB Talk runs on removed it because of the disparaging nature of conversation, not the subject matter. In all the years I've participated over there, I've never seen that happen.
Perhaps a more friendly approach and taking on the manner of a visitor might've prevented our loss.
---Unfortunately, the owner of the servers SB Talk runs on removed it because of the disparaging nature of conversation, not the subject matter. In all the years I've participated over there, I've never seen that happen.
Perhaps a more friendly approach and taking on the manner of a visitor might've prevented our loss.
Tim,
The "disparaging" conversation in the "Hensley Slander" thread did not occur only after Joe's comments were posted. Disparaging remarks existed in that thread from the very beginning.
And, the disparaging conversation is not limited to only the "Hensley Slander" thread. The Sunnybrooktalk Forum thread titled, "Hensley at 5 times - Tim?", is also full of disparaging remarks.
I doubt very much that a more friendly approach and/or acting like a visitor would have made any difference. Joe posted something which was interpreted by some Sunnybrook Forum readers as being "anti-Hensley"; and that's all it takes to get the disparaging conversation started.
Ron
Thank you for bringing this to light. Your kevlar vest has been tested! Shame on those to think none of the scenarios's given are plausible. What if's, are just that, at least I won't be hit in the arse, when I least expect it, while using an HA (thanks HA for NOT pointing out this phenom).
Peter & Dawn
97 Winnebago Adventurer 37RW
91 R2500,454 Chevy Suburban
96 Prowler 27X SOLD
Yamaha EF2800I
IAFF L-792
Driveing in rain with the cruise control is a known hazard also!
If the bump is enough to cause a accident then I believe that in reality it is a case of Driveing to fast for conditions.
Or worse yet failure to control due to Driveing to fast for conditions.
JMO
tluxon wrote:
Joe,
I'd like to say that you didn't get the typical experience over at Sunnybrook Talk, but the reasons weren't what you've taken them to be. ...
crappie_fisherman wrote:
...
Okay Don…fire away…but before you do…a little birdie told me that the fellows over on sunnybrooktalk have DELETED (i.e. REMOVED ALL REFERENCE TO) the ‘slander post’
...
Okay Don…fire away…but before you do…a little birdie told me that the fellows over on sunnybrooktalk have DELETED (i.e. REMOVED ALL REFERENCE TO) the ‘slander post’
Joe,
I'd like to say that you didn't get the typical experience over at Sunnybrook Talk, but the reasons weren't what you've taken them to be. ...
Regardless of what led up to it and how we try and sugar coat it...censorship is censorship. Censorship is defined as the removal and/or withholding of information from the public by a controlling group or body. In this case...I feel that my topic was one that the CONTROLLING body didn't want shared over there in an OPEN forum...and POOF it is gone...never to be seen again...
tluxon wrote:
If you took a look at Sunnybrook Talk right now, you'd see that the most active thread is decrying the removal of that thread you linked to. See What happened to the "Hot" HA thread. That thread grew as fast as any I have seen over there, accumulating 36 posts in less than 12 hours. Unfortunately, the owner of the servers SB Talk runs on removed it because of the disparaging nature of conversation, not the subject matter. In all the years I've participated over there, I've never seen that happen.
If you took a look at Sunnybrook Talk right now, you'd see that the most active thread is decrying the removal of that thread you linked to. See What happened to the "Hot" HA thread. That thread grew as fast as any I have seen over there, accumulating 36 posts in less than 12 hours. Unfortunately, the owner of the servers SB Talk runs on removed it because of the disparaging nature of conversation, not the subject matter. In all the years I've participated over there, I've never seen that happen.
Interesting reading for sure...thanks for sharing it with those on here. I notice I'm still being 'talked' about...I kinda like crappie_hemi...but then that would start all kinds of flaming over here!
Sorry if my "Kool-Aid" remark upset you...but the censorship kind of solidified my thoughts...in my mind at least...while I shouldn't have made the comment...the removal of the my post leads me to beleive that there is a CONTROLLING body just as happened in Guyana...sorry VERY BAD analogy I know...but I let my emotions get to me...I know better and shouldn't have said it...
tluxon wrote:
Perhaps a more friendly approach and taking on the manner of a visitor might've prevented our loss.
Perhaps a more friendly approach and taking on the manner of a visitor might've prevented our loss.
I fully acknowledge I rolled (not trolled) in there to 'discuss' a hot topic...Sean had dropped out over here and asked to discuss it over there on the "The FRIENDLIEST FORUM On The Internet Today"...apparently it is friendly with the 'proper' initiation...don't know...my shy and introverted personality usually keeps me from getting into confrontations!
(yes that is sarcasm...sorry)...getting dragged thru the mud in a "Friendly place" will do that to a guy.As far as the loss of the thread...I apologize if trying to discuss what the CONTROLLING body feels is inapropriate...but topics that expose potentially dangerous situations...no matter how remote...should be able to be discussed.
The ultimate result over there tells me one thing...maybe...just maybe...my 'theroies' were hitting a little too close to home in a forum obviously run by someone that doesn't want to discuss that possibility...THINK ABOUT THAT...
I thank you for attempting to clear up some things...Please excuse me if I don't share your position about the sunnybrooktalk site. While I apparently have the 'honor' of being a couple of 'firsts' over there...I was apparently the 'first' to use the block member feature...and I was the 'first' to have a thread censored, deleted, vaporized, GONE...for that I will apparenlty be immortalized.
There are many members that frequent both here and there. I did notice the blatant disregard for this site (i.e. RV.Net) from the "The FRIENDLIEST FORUM On The Internet Today". For a bunch of folks with nothing nice to say about this site...they sure do like to call themselves 'friendly' a lot.
And I FULLY agree with Burbman...some of my scenarios are very LOW PROBABILITY...there is STILL a probability and ones we need to be prepared for...that's all...
joe.
crappie_fisherman wrote:
...censorship is censorship. Censorship is defined as the removal and/or withholding of information from the public by a controlling group or body. In this case...I feel that my topic was one that the CONTROLLING body didn't want shared over there in an OPEN forum...and POOF it is gone...never to be seen again...
...censorship is censorship. Censorship is defined as the removal and/or withholding of information from the public by a controlling group or body. In this case...I feel that my topic was one that the CONTROLLING body didn't want shared over there in an OPEN forum...and POOF it is gone...never to be seen again...
There is FAR more censorship on this Open Road Forum (rv.net) that there is on SunnyBrook Talk.
Why are you not crying foul for the censorship that occurs here?
Russell
drfife wrote:
There is FAR more censorship on this Open Road Forum (rv.net) that there is on SunnyBrook Talk.
Why are you not crying foul for the censorship that occurs here?
Russell
There is FAR more censorship on this Open Road Forum (rv.net) that there is on SunnyBrook Talk.
Why are you not crying foul for the censorship that occurs here?
Russell
..Russell, I think the difference is, everyone knows thats just the way it is here, and not much can be done about it.
Over on the sunnybrook forums, the impression is/was that things aren't done that way. However, it was in this case, and the circumstances of such are VERY suspicious, given that the one who deleted the thread gave a lame excuse for such, and is affiliated with the product being 'questioned' in that thread. I think THAT is why there is a bit more 'stink' about how this happened.
It'd be like if suddenly all the threads bashing Camping World's practices on here suddenly started getting deleted. Naturally, everyone would get very suspicious about the reasoning if it happened, since the owners of this forum also own Camping World.
Regardless of all that, I for one am very proud of Joe, for standing up and speaking his mind on this, even when it was in a place where what he had to say was not the most popular thing to say. I'd like to think that this thread will help people make even more informed choices in the future, and may well even prevent an accident or two.
Will & Angela
2 children that love camping, Stephen & Allison
2003 Ford Excursion V10 4x4 ("No Taxpayers were harmed by the makers of this truck")
2003 Thor Citation 33M, Hensley Arrow hitch, Brakesmart Brake Control
Our Rig
willald wrote:
...Regardless of all that, I for one am very proud of Joe, for standing up and speaking his mind on this, even when it was in a place where what he had to say was not the most popular thing to say...
...Regardless of all that, I for one am very proud of Joe, for standing up and speaking his mind on this, even when it was in a place where what he had to say was not the most popular thing to say...
As I've said MANY times. I don't have a problem with his content. The problem was with the delivery.
I'm sad the thread was deleted. Then everyone could read how mean spirited some of the comments were.
That's what I don't like to see.
I don't expect for us to agree on everything, but we can be civil about it.
That was and is my point.
Russell
'02 Chevy Suburban 2500 4X4 8.1 4.10 : '03 SunnyBrook Titan 29DBS
'04 BrakeSmart Controller : '01 Hensley Arrow Hitch
Who operates the Sunnybrook forum? Hensley?
Looks like their whole site is offline right now. Probably running a filter on the server to be sure they scrubbed all Joe's posts.....
Engine wrote:
Granted that there maybe is a negaitve with the HM bump.Is it unsafe?---
Granted that there maybe is a negaitve with the HM bump.Is it unsafe?---
Engine,
The following are accounts of accidents and near accidents which occurred while towing with a Hensley Arrow and braking. If you read these accounts, then you should be able to form your own opinion regarding safety.
Mountaineer/HA/Airstream This was a jackknife accident which occurred during breaking.
Expedition/HA/Airstream The article does not state that the hitch was a Hensley Arrow. A friend of the driver posted that information in an Airstream forum. According to the Chief of Police, 'It appears Allen "tried to brake too quickly" as she neared the officers, causing the trailer to sway.
Expedition/HA/Sunnybrook - Post #5 Driver started to brake and lost control of the trailer and it slid on its side down the median.
DodgeTruck/HA/Airstream - July 14,2005 A deer ran across the road and everyone put their brakes on.---We ran into the concrete divider---The trailer fish-tailed---
HENSLEY ARROW INVOLVED IN ACCIDENT Braked in a curve and lost control.
???/HA/??? Braking caused bent strut and sheared bolts. No accident involved.
ExpressVan/HA/ProwlerRegalSevere Hensley Bump when brake controller did not work. No accident involved.
"Bump" Report by LAdams Please note this statement: "In this writers opinion, that bump is highly suspect in at least one instance I read about on these forums and is also responsible for my nearly loosing control of my rig and what could have been an unfortunate outcome..."
Ron
Quote:
---I don't have a problem with his content. The problem was with the delivery.
---I don't have a problem with his content. The problem was with the delivery.
No, the problem was not with the delivery. As a matter of fact, the "Hensley Slander?" thread began because some Sunnybrooktalk members didn't like the content of a post on Open Roads Forum. There were as many disparaging comments at the beginning of the thread as there were at the end.
The disparaging comments against Joe were made because he posted something which was perceived by some to be "anti-Hensley".
Ron
I am still of the feeling that To fast for conditions is the over-rideing factor.
Kinda the iceing on the cake so to speak.
Lets face it, folks will blame anything but themselves!
This bump is just a small push,it is not like a out of nowhere slam of looseness.
Engine wrote:
---This bump is just a small push,it is not like a out of nowhere slam of looseness.
---This bump is just a small push,it is not like a out of nowhere slam of looseness.
I believe Mike and Les would not agree that the bump is "just a small push".
Ron
Drfife wrote:
There is FAR more censorship on this Open Road Forum (rv.net) that there is on SunnyBrook Talk.
Why are you not crying foul for the censorship that occurs here?
There is FAR more censorship on this Open Road Forum (rv.net) that there is on SunnyBrook Talk.
Why are you not crying foul for the censorship that occurs here?
The only "censorship" that occurs here is because of not following the posted rules that everyone agrees to when they join. I just deleted about 3 or 4 posts from this thread for being "off topic" and/or referring to the deleted "off topic" posts. Threads and posts are NOT deleted on this forum because of beliefs or difference of opinions. Only when they become personal attacks, or stray completely off topic, does the thread get locked down or deleted.
The moderators here have a very clear set of guidelines to follow and try to operate accordingly.
Barney
2004 Sunnybrook 30FKS TT
Hensley "Arrow" 1400# hitch
2002 Ford F250 Super Duty, 7.3L PSD
Check out the RV.net Blogs!
Visit our website here
BurbMan wrote:
Looks like their whole site is offline right now. Probably running a filter on the server to be sure they scrubbed all Joe's posts.....
Looks like their whole site is offline right now. Probably running a filter on the server to be sure they scrubbed all Joe's posts.....
I know I SHOULDN'T...I know better...but I just can't resist...sorry...
Could the kool-aid have kicked in?
joe.
BarneyS wrote:
The only "censorship" that occurs here is because of not following the posted rules that everyone agrees to when they join....
Drfife wrote:
There is FAR more censorship on this Open Road Forum (rv.net) that there is on SunnyBrook Talk.
Why are you not crying foul for the censorship that occurs here?
There is FAR more censorship on this Open Road Forum (rv.net) that there is on SunnyBrook Talk.
Why are you not crying foul for the censorship that occurs here?
The only "censorship" that occurs here is because of not following the posted rules that everyone agrees to when they join....
Barney, with all due respect, your statement is false.
There have been numerous threads shut down here on ORF merely because the moderators did not feel like editing individual posts.
Are you not aware this has happened MANY times?
Ron Gratz wrote:
No, the problem was not with the delivery. As a matter of fact, the "Hensley Slander?" thread began because some Sunnybrooktalk members didn't like the content of a post on Open Roads Forum. There were as many disparaging comments at the beginning of the thread as there were at the end.
The disparaging comments against Joe were made because he posted something which was perceived by some to be "anti-Hensley".
Ron
No, the problem was not with the delivery. As a matter of fact, the "Hensley Slander?" thread began because some Sunnybrooktalk members didn't like the content of a post on Open Roads Forum. There were as many disparaging comments at the beginning of the thread as there were at the end.
The disparaging comments against Joe were made because he posted something which was perceived by some to be "anti-Hensley".
Ron
Ron, this is a lie.
Unfortunately I can't find the thread, since it was shut down or I would prove you are lying.
I'm sure you are happy.
drfife wrote:
Barney, with all due respect, your statement is false.
There have been numerous threads shut down here on ORF merely because the moderators did not feel like editing individual posts.
Are you not aware this has happened MANY times?
Barney, with all due respect, your statement is false.
There have been numerous threads shut down here on ORF merely because the moderators did not feel like editing individual posts.
Are you not aware this has happened MANY times?
Russell,
Let's look at one and only one fact.
While you may feel that POSTS over here have been edited and/or deleted for reasons you felt were 'within ORF rules'...Right?
Let me ask you one thing...has an ENTIRE WEBSITE been SHUT DOWN and DELETED along with all of its contents for expressing opinions against the web masters opinion?...ponder that one...if that isn't CENSORSHIP...I don't know what is.
joe.
joe.
crappie_fisherman wrote:
...Let me ask you one thing...has an ENTIRE WEBSITE been SHUT DOWN and DELETED along with all of its contents for exoressing opinions against the web masters opinion?...ponder that one...if that isn't CENSORSHIP...I don't know what is....
...Let me ask you one thing...has an ENTIRE WEBSITE been SHUT DOWN and DELETED along with all of its contents for exoressing opinions against the web masters opinion?...ponder that one...if that isn't CENSORSHIP...I don't know what is....
You are proud and think that SBT got shut down because of your Hensley Slander posts.
It is sad that SBT was shut down. But your diatribe there was not the reason.
Here's the real reason:
http://www.myrvtalk.com/showpost.php?p=70&postcount=11
drfife wrote:
You are proud and think that SBT got shut down because of your Hensley Slander posts.
It is sad that SBT was shut down. But your diatribe there was not the reason.
Here's the real reason:
http://www.myrvtalk.com/showpost.php?p=70&postcount=11
crappie_fisherman wrote:
...Let me ask you one thing...has an ENTIRE WEBSITE been SHUT DOWN and DELETED along with all of its contents for exoressing opinions against the web masters opinion?...ponder that one...if that isn't CENSORSHIP...I don't know what is....
...Let me ask you one thing...has an ENTIRE WEBSITE been SHUT DOWN and DELETED along with all of its contents for exoressing opinions against the web masters opinion?...ponder that one...if that isn't CENSORSHIP...I don't know what is....
You are proud and think that SBT got shut down because of your Hensley Slander posts.
It is sad that SBT was shut down. But your diatribe there was not the reason.
Here's the real reason:
http://www.myrvtalk.com/showpost.php?p=70&postcount=11
Russell,
I NEVER said the Hensley thread I was participating in was the reason...you assumed that was what I meant...and I didn't...the censorship part is STILL true IMO based on the link you provided...Sunnybrook didn't want their quality issues discussed...isn't that censorship?
joe.
crappie_fisherman wrote:
...I NEVER said the Hensley thread I was participating in was the reason...you assumed that was what I meant...and I didn't...the censorship part is STILL true IMO based on the link you provided...Sunnybrook didn't want their quality issues discussed...isn't that censorship?
joe.
...I NEVER said the Hensley thread I was participating in was the reason...you assumed that was what I meant...and I didn't...the censorship part is STILL true IMO based on the link you provided...Sunnybrook didn't want their quality issues discussed...isn't that censorship?
joe.
Joe, I don't intend this to be mean, but did you read the thread?
SunnyBrook RV did not pull the plug on the site.
The independent owner who did not wish the risk of financial ruin from a possible lawsuit from SunnyBrook RV precipitated the forum owner to pull the site down.
You call it censorship. But I doubt you would send him money to defend himself if he was sued. The list owner did what he had to do to protect his family.
That's what the thread says. How you read your own agenda into it is beyond me.
If that push,HA Bump put them out of control then they dont need to be hauling thousands of pounds around.There are other factors involved,like maybe over taxed tow vehicle abilitys, but it is in real life mainly Going To Fast.
Jmo
drfife wrote:
How you read your own agenda into it is beyond me.
How you read your own agenda into it is beyond me.
Russell,
Out of respect for Barney and Les...You and I are obviously having a difficult time communicating with each other...why don't you and I just cool it for a while?...
joe.
drfife wrote:
Barney, with all due respect, your statement is false.
There have been numerous threads shut down here on ORF merely because the moderators did not feel like editing individual posts.
Are you not aware this has happened MANY times?
BarneyS wrote:
The only "censorship" that occurs here is because of not following the posted rules that everyone agrees to when they join....
Drfife wrote:
There is FAR more censorship on this Open Road Forum (rv.net) that there is on SunnyBrook Talk.
Why are you not crying foul for the censorship that occurs here?
There is FAR more censorship on this Open Road Forum (rv.net) that there is on SunnyBrook Talk.
Why are you not crying foul for the censorship that occurs here?
The only "censorship" that occurs here is because of not following the posted rules that everyone agrees to when they join....
Barney, with all due respect, your statement is false.
There have been numerous threads shut down here on ORF merely because the moderators did not feel like editing individual posts.
Are you not aware this has happened MANY times?
Russell,
You are correct in that statement but I do not call that censorship. My time is limited and if I have to spend over an hour or more editing posts, as I should do right now on this thread, then I will shut it down. This thread is closed. Call it censorship if you like but it has nothing to do with my personal feelings. This thread has gone off topic and the remarks are getting personal so I will now shut this one down.
Barney
Quote:
Ron, this is a lie.
Unfortunately I can't find the thread, since it was shut down or I would prove you are lying.
Ron Gratz wrote:
No, the problem was not with the delivery. As a matter of fact, the "Hensley Slander?" thread began because some Sunnybrooktalk members didn't like the content of a post on Open Roads Forum. There were as many disparaging comments at the beginning of the thread as there were at the end.
The disparaging comments against Joe were made because he posted something which was perceived by some to be "anti-Hensley".
Ron
No, the problem was not with the delivery. As a matter of fact, the "Hensley Slander?" thread began because some Sunnybrooktalk members didn't like the content of a post on Open Roads Forum. There were as many disparaging comments at the beginning of the thread as there were at the end.
The disparaging comments against Joe were made because he posted something which was perceived by some to be "anti-Hensley".
Ron
Ron, this is a lie.
Unfortunately I can't find the thread, since it was shut down or I would prove you are lying.
Well, let's see whether it's a lie. Following is some of the cached text from the first page of the "Hensley Slander?" thread. I've deleted the names of Sunnybrooktalk members who contributed.
QUOTE (with posters' names deleted)
02-04-2007, 12:23 PM
Hensley Slander?
Sean,
I'd make sure this Ron Gratz is telling the truth in this thread, otherwise your company is being slandered badly.
02-04-2007, 12:48 PM
(name deleted), Ron is on his quest.
I have no idea what his beef is with Hensley.
As you may know, Mr. Gratz does not tow a travel trailer. He full times in a class A.
I suspect he's bored, and trolling Hensley threads on RV.net excites him.
He's done searches on my posts and will probably find this one and take exception to it.
02-04-2007, 02:36 PM
Every time Ron Gratz opens his mouth he demonstrates his ignorance.
It would bother me if it affected the business.
The funny thing is that I can track spikes in Hensley traffic and free video requests based on RV.net controversy.
These requests ultimately turn into sales in 1 out of every 12 that get the video. That being the fact, my challenge is to get more videos out the door to travel trailer owners.
In the case of Ron Gratz, his ignorance is my bliss.
02-07-2007, 04:52 PM
Oh it gets better as you read down. One guy wondered why we didn't lower the price if the hitch is so great. I love the reasoning. Yes, Mr. Gratz does enjoy crawling the web and slapping up Hensley.---
02-07-2007, 05:01 PM
I just posted a message on RV.net for Ron Gratz to call Hensley and ask for Sean.
I'm sure Sean can straighten him out ....
UNQUOTE
So, where's the lie?
Ron